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Update on new Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion MB


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40 minutes ago, Navybone said:

What part of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion would people disagree with?  They would disagree with the ideal of creating a culture that welcomes and respects diverse perspectives?   Do we not want Scouts to be an organization that creates a sense of belonging and builds communities where every person feels respected and valued?  Should scouts not denounces racism, discrimination, inequality and injustice? 

This is what BSA is saying when they talk about the principles behind the new Merit Badge.  And I would say that if a scout or a scouter does support all these principles, then they are not living up to the values of the Scout Law - Friendly, Curious, Kind, Brave.

That's a good and relevant question. You address the ideas of what divesity and inclusion are supposed to be, bit not Equity and how D and I support it in the context it is given.

Equity is the idea that everyone should get the same outcome regardless of their ability or effort. This is completely counter to equality of opportunity, as well as not possible to accomplish. For example, does BSA now give every kid an Eagle regardless of the effort they put in? No, and if they start the Eagle becomes valueless.

In this context "Diversity" is not what you described. It is a justification for Equity and takes the form of disfavoring individuality, which is how we teach scouts to see other people - as unique individuals - and replaces that with a concept of group identity so that some groups are 'oppressors' and others 'oppressed', which in turn gives direction to Equity in the form of moving resources such as jobs or tax dollars from members of one group to another.

Inclusion is not about including everyone, it is about choosing who to exclude - namely anyone who disagrees that Equity is a good idea. Inclusion is also about ensuring that ideas which are not supported by sound principles (such as Equity and other things we wouldn't consider "morally straight") are allowed into the culture rather than excluded.

Ultimately these are Marxist ideas, and Marxism is hugely contentious, mostly because the last 100 years proved these ideas result in millions of dead people. That's not trivial, therefore neither are the concerns about it.

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I have major issues with BSA actively entering the political arena.  By mentioning B. Taylor, they have gone way beyond selling war bonds and into anti-police propaganda.  That is something that they

Likewise. Which is all I'm looking for. But by the chosen phrasing, I fear that this is NOT what we are seeing. If "white privilege"/"check your privilege" or "systemic racism" is brought up

Let's start with the "equity" portion. Equity is an impossible goal to achieve. No matter how we strive we will never achieve equal outcomes. The goal of "equity" is a myth, an impossible achieveme

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Well, since we have it on report that there is ZERO - not even a shred of - supremacy at play, it must be tongue-in-cheek.

That cafe that I mentioned is in a section of town well worth visiting, but one some of my scouts’ parents would never allow their boys to visit.

As far as I can tell, the most extreme of these boys are not overt aspiring Klansmen, like some of my high school classmates were. But they would cringe if they are offered an opportunity to read Dr. King’s speech on January 18th.

I honestly don’t care about anybody’s acronym or catch phrase. I just want the boys in my community to be brave enough to walk a few miles into a predominantly non-white neighborhood and have a decent bowl of gumbo. I want them to be mentally fit enough to learn whatever skill they desire from caring adults of any ethnic origin. And, I wouldn’t be bothered if they were kind enough to uplift someone of a race or creed other than theirs in the process.

So, I’m not fretting the details. If it looks like this MB will do that, I’ll get behind it. If it wrinkles, there’s so much more to scouting than earning Eagle.

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2 hours ago, qwazse said:

I just want the boys in my community to be brave enough to walk a few miles into a predominantly non-white neighborhood and have a decent bowl of gumbo.

That's exactly right, total, 100% agreement. If this DEI badge is to teach these boys what DEI typically teaches we're talking about training derived from critical race theory. There is solid psychological evidence that CRT exaserbates racism and creates it where none previously existed. Of course we'll wait and see if this is the case with the MB, but with who is running BSA and the direction the org is going I'm not optimistic that it will be something different.

Parents who don't want their kids going in certain neighborhoods may have other reasons besides race for making such rules. Chances are most of them remember the 90's crime wave and their memories of what happened in certain parts of town rather than race is what colors their perception. I know many a "woke" person who feels that way exactly. Some have been teaching their kids never to buy pot in certain neighborhoods.

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4 hours ago, Bowsprit said:

 

Equity is the idea that everyone should get the same outcome regardless of their ability or effort.

In this context "Diversity" is not what you described. It is a justification for Equity and takes the form of disfavoring individuality, which is how we teach scouts to see other people - as unique individuals - and replaces that with a concept of group identity so that some groups are 'oppressors' and others 'oppressed', which in turn gives direction to Equity in the form of moving resources such as jobs or tax dollars from members of one group to another.

Inclusion is not about including everyone, it is about choosing who to exclude - namely anyone who disagrees that Equity is a good idea. Inclusion is also about ensuring that ideas which are not supported by sound principles (such as Equity and other things we wouldn't consider "morally straight") are allowed into the culture rather than excluded.

Ultimately these are Marxist ideas, and Marxism is hugely contentious, mostly because the last 100 years proved these ideas result in millions of dead people. That's not trivial, therefore neither are the concerns about it.

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.  Wherever you got your definition, it is a corruption of the idea of fairness and having an opportunity - as in everyone should have the same opportunity.  Same with your definition of inclusion and diversity.   

BSA has pretty much already articulated what their intent is and how it is absolutely inline with scouting.  There is nothing Marxist (or socialist, or communist).   And if BSA was turning  into a Marxist organization where everyone is made Eagle, I would think adding a new requirement might be the last thing they would do.  Don’t you think they would eliminate requirements....

 

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1 hour ago, Bowsprit said:

If this DEI badge is to teach these boys what DEI typically teaches we're talking about training derived from critical race theory.

There is nothing to indicate the CRT is what the badge will be based on. Maybe an open mind?  

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7 hours ago, Navybone said:

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.  Wherever you got your definition, it is a corruption of the idea of fairness and having an opportunity - as in everyone should have the same opportunity.

 

No, that's equality of opportunity. Equity is very different. I know this seems like splitting hairs, but it is important to properly define the key issue of topic if we're going to discuss it.

"The terms equality and equity are often used interchangeably; however, they differ in important ways. Equality is typically defined as treating everyone the same and giving everyone access to the same opportunities. Meanwhile, equity refers to proportional representation (by race, class, gender, etc.)"

It is in fact a Marxist idea, one that has become increasingly popular among people who don't know it is a Marxist idea because they think Equity is a synonym for Equality of opportuinity, the same way you do. Originally Marxism was all about class, but this grew to include any potentially divisive "identity" group in the 60's and 70's.

The allure of Marxism is that it sounds like everything people say they want, prosperity for all, fair treatment, etc. The effect of Marxism on a population, it turns out, is the exact opposite. But this appeal, being a natural human desire, is intentionally used to lead people in a Marxist direction without the Marxists typically telling those people where they are being led. You see, Lenin's tactics were effective enough to be used around the world and proven to be more effective the more ignorant a population was about Marxism, hence the common term Leninist-Marxist to describe those who use them.

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17 hours ago, Navybone said:

I do not even know where to start.  Equity is not the idea that everyone should get the same outcome.

Equity is a KEY component of critical race theory. Anything short of an equal start (which is impossible as everyone doesn't have the same life experiences) is discrimination and falls short of "equity". Offering some event to everyone regardless of race, gender, etc is not enough. You have to correct for all disparities or it isn't "equity".

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4 hours ago, BQZip said:

Equity is a KEY component of critical race theory. Anything short of an equal start (which is impossible as everyone doesn't have the same life experiences) is discrimination and falls short of "equity". Offering some event to everyone regardless of race, gender, etc is not enough. You have to correct for all disparities or it isn't "equity".

So no one "starts" "equal, ' as you say,  and, thus "equity, "a KEY component of critical race theory" is "impossible,. as you say.  That being agreed, your "critical race theory' is an illusion - a slogan divorced from reality - an excuse for throwing responsibility for the inevitably unequal outcomes, on someone(s) other than the individuals themselves.   If you speak for BSA, we owe you sincere thanks.  You have explained the evil we must utterly crush.  

"On my honor,  I will do my best ....."

"A Scout is ...."

"Discrimination," by the way, is largely legal and ethical.  It is through discrimination that we do not voluntarily  contribute to the funds to pay "leaders" who produce bad results for the organization, as baseball teams discriminate against "every day" players who cannot hit a breaking ball.  

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3 hours ago, TAHAWK said:

So no one "starts" "equal, ' as you say,  and, thus "equity, "a KEY component of critical race theory" is "impossible,. as you say.  That being agreed, your "critical race theory' is an illusion - a slogan divorced from reality - an excuse for throwing responsibility for the inevitably unequal outcomes, on someone(s) other than the individuals themselves.   If you speak for BSA, we owe you sincere thanks.  You have explained the evil we must utterly crush.  

"On my honor,  I will do my best ....."

"A Scout is ...."

"Discrimination," by the way, is largely legal and ethical.  It is through discrimination that we do not voluntarily  contribute to the funds to pay "leaders" who produce bad results for the organization, as baseball teams discriminate against "every day" players who cannot hit a breaking ball.  

You misread my statement...I agree with you. My comments are CRITICAL of CRT, not supportive.

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On 11/27/2020 at 3:34 AM, Bowsprit said:

No, that's equality of opportunity. Equity is very different. I know this seems like splitting hairs, but it is important to properly define the key issue of topic if we're going to discuss it.

"The terms equality and equity are often used interchangeably; however, they differ in important ways. Equality is typically defined as treating everyone the same and giving everyone access to the same opportunities. Meanwhile, equity refers to proportional representation (by race, class, gender, etc.)"

It is in fact a Marxist idea, one that has become increasingly popular among people who don't know it is a Marxist idea because they think Equity is a synonym for Equality of opportuinity, the same way you do. Originally Marxism was all about class, but this grew to include any potentially divisive "identity" group in the 60's and 70's.

The allure of Marxism is that it sounds like everything people say they want, prosperity for all, fair treatment, etc. The effect of Marxism on a population, it turns out, is the exact opposite. But this appeal, being a natural human desire, is intentionally used to lead people in a Marxist direction without the Marxists typically telling those people where they are being led. You see, Lenin's tactics were effective enough to be used around the world and proven to be more effective the more ignorant a population was about Marxism, hence the common term Leninist-Marxist to describe those who use them.

That is one definition from a scholarly article. Not the normal definition by any means.  Another is the definition Ford uses when they discuss diversity, equity, and inclusion.  And Ford is not a Marxist company.

”Equity seeks to ensure fair treatment, equality of opportunity, and fairness in access to information and resources for all. We believe this is only possible in an environment built on respect and dignity.”

fair treatment, equal opportunity, and fairness are consistent with how BSA operates and the scout law and oath.  There is no reason to believe this definition is not consistent with the BSAs approach to equity.  There is nothing to suggest that the BSA would suddenly  adopt a Marxist philosophy regarding scouting.  

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