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Leadership as "Authenticity"

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You and other parents take your kids to a highly politicized Pro-Life rally where adults call everybody names at these rallies all over the United Stand and you think the bias is because you're Catholics? You portray yourself as an activist who is using the youth to help push your cause. Something doesn't add up here. 

Barry

EXACTLY!

Again, it seems as if he is using his Scouting unit in ways that directly violate YPT and Guide to Safe Scouting.

3 hours ago, David CO said:

We expect to be yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies.  The kids are ready for it.  They have been trained to handle it.  They will anticipate the crowds calling them all sorts of ugly names (like bigot and hater).  They understand that this is the price for adhering to their faith.

You are using Scouting to train teens to be yelled at, cursed and, physically threatened?

Honestly, at what point does one of us need to contact National? He admits to putting his scouts in harms way.

Moderators? Seriously. Someone needs to step in here. @MattR

@RememberSchiff

Edited by CynicalScouter
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1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

EXACTLY!

Again, it seems as if he is using his Scouting unit in ways that directly violate YPT and Guide to Safe Scouting.

Honestly, at what point does one of us need to contact National? He admits to putting his scouts in harms way.

Moderators? Seriously. Someone needs to step in here.

Nowhere in his posts did he directly mention his Scouting unit going to Pro Life Events. If he and his Scouts go, (probably organized by the school he works for) as a school and not as a Scout Troop it has nothing to do with Scouting. 

Tons of potential risk there for personal safety, but not a BSA issue. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Nowhere in his posts did he directly mention his Scouting unit going to Pro Life Events. If he and his Scouts go, (probably organized by the school he works for) as a school and not as a Scout Troop it has nothing to do with Scouting. 

Tons of potential risk there for personal safety, but not a BSA issue. 

I quoted the post where he did. So did @carebear3895

3 hours ago, David CO said:

We expect to be yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies.  The kids are ready for it.  They have been trained to handle it.  They will anticipate the crowds calling them all sorts of ugly names (like bigot and hater).  They understand that this is the price for adhering to their faith.

We both read it the same way: He is jeopardizing scouts and this is a scout event.

37 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

That said....WHAT THE &#(@ ARE YOU DOING TAKING SCOUTS TO A PRO-LIFE RALLEY. My God man, use some common sense. 

Politics of the event aside, those always have the potential to get out of control. Don't put kids in that position. 

I'll await my downvote. 

Edited by CynicalScouter
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4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I quoted the post where he did. So did @carebear3895

We both read it the same way: He is jeopardizing scouts and this is a scout event.

Just because you interpret it that way doesn't make you right. We is a general word. It could apply to David CO and his Scouts, OR more likely, it could be David CO and his Students from the school that he's a teacher at. Maybe they are his Scouts, but that doesn't make it a Scout activity. Attending those Pro Life rallies are that's pretty common at Catholic schools. 
 

@David CO participates in this forum because he likes to wind people like you up. I recommend you stop engaging with him, but you're free to keep rolling in the metaphorical mud with him. 

 

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1 minute ago, Sentinel947 said:

 

@David CO participates in this forum because he likes to wind people like you up. I recommend you stop engaging with him, but you're free to keep rolling in the metaphorical mud with him.

Point well taken.

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Let's take it down a notch or two.

I assumed @David CO took his scouts to a political rally as a scout activity, but as Sentinel points out David may have been referring to taking his students to a political rally as a school activity. 

Perhaps David can clarify?

IMHO moderating the next Presidential debate would be an pleasant change. :unsure:

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

I assumed @David CO took his scouts to a political rally as a scout activity, but as Sentinel points out David may have been referring to taking his students to a political rally as a school activity. 

Perhaps David can clarify?

I'd like to see such clarification as well. If as a school activity, fine. If as a scout activity and/or using scouting to "train" the scouts to be "yelled at, cursed at, and physically threatened at highly politicized events like pro-life rallies" (the way I originally read it as well as others) that is a glaring YPT/GSS violation.

I suspect, however, this will just get a downvote and nothing more. That seems to be his MO.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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9 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Let's take it down a notch or two.

I assumed @David CO took his scouts to a political rally as a scout activity, but as Sentinel points out David may have been referring to taking his students to a political rally as a school activity. 

Perhaps David can clarify?

IMHO moderating the next Presidential debate would be an pleasant change. :unsure:

There's a reason I gave Scouter Terry back his Pink Letters. God bless all of the Mods for the thankless task of constantly monitoring this forum. Now I get to browse on my free time. 

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17 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

If he and his Scouts go, (probably organized by the school he works for) as a school and not as a Scout Troop it has nothing to do with Scouting.  

True.  It has nothing to do with scouting.  I was saying that we expect this sort of anti-Catholic behavior at pro-life rallies.  We shouldn't have to expect it at scout activities.

 

1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

 

Perhaps David can clarify?

IMHO moderating the next Presidential debate would be an pleasant change. :unsure:

I didn't want to go into any detail about pro-life rallies, since it not a scouting activity.  But if it will help you to calm things down, you should know that the rally organizers have the kids wear custom printed shirts, designed specially for each rally, so that the supervisors can easily spot and identify our kids.  Even if a boy was to want to wear his scout uniform to a pro-life rally, the organizers wouldn't allow it.  They have to wear the shirt.

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2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Here's the biggest, hardest part; how to inform about the rules without lecturing about the rules. The second hardest is the push back. The tradition of "don't kill the messenger" does not always happen.

I think this points to a shift in philosophy that someone practicing authentic leadership has to make.

If the BSA wanted to follow an authentic leadership approach, it would need to stop directing and instructing units.  The BSA (at the national and council level) would really need to embody more of a trusted advisor or consultant work model.  A commissioner (or other similar leader) should never come into a unit and start instructing leaders.  Instead, a commissioner would need to employ a rule of "don't offer advice, but respond to requests for help."  The commissioner should only step in unasked in cases where there is danger to youth from inaction.

Regardless of what the paperwork may say, in 2020, our culture appears to respond much better to consulting help than correction help.  This also fits better conceptually to a authentic or servant leadership model.

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20 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

 

@David CO participates in this forum because he likes to wind people like you up. I recommend you stop engaging with him, but you're free to keep rolling in the metaphorical mud with him. 
 

I haven't been responding to him at all.  I wish he would stop engaging with me.  I wish he would stop asking me to reply.  I don't want to talk to him.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, David CO said:

I didn't want to go into any detail about pro-life rallies, since it not a scouting activity.

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification. 

Apologies about my earlier judgement. 

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If the BSA wanted to follow an authentic leadership approach, it would need to stop directing and instructing units. 

So, allow units to act in whatever fashion they want and calling it BSA scouting makes no sense.

Either you are a BSA unit (and therefore in compliance with BSA rules and regulations) or you are not.

It really seems as if you are advocating for a model where any unit can call itself "Scouts, BSA" or "Cub Scouts" or whatever and make its own path.

Remember: the right to use the terms, language, and logos of Boy Scouts of America belong to Boy Scouts of America. Not Troop 123 or the local CO.

You don't want to follow BSA's rules? Fine. Make up your own organization. Several have.

So I agree, somethings are open for debate. But not when it comes to the rules created by National. Not if you want to be a BSA unit.

Because this is now so far afield of the original post, I created another thread.

 

Edited by CynicalScouter

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2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

If presenting the colors at a Methodist church meant handling the flag of the Methodist Church, I can see why the Archbishop would forbid it. If non Catholics want to carry our flag around, that's up to them. Catholics are also forbidden from participating in Communion at Churches that deny the real presence of Jesus Christ in communion. Non Catholics are not permitted to receive communion at a Catholic church. 

By all accounts, I'm an institutional BSA Scouter:  Eagle Scout, OA Brotherhood member, Completed Wood Badge, NYLT Adult staff X 3, District Training Committee, Summer Camp Staff, Shooting Sports Committee. I've got no problem supporting and defending the rules, even if sometimes their application is detrimental.

Changing Troops internal procedures is an exercise in change management. It has very little to with knots, beads, or experience. It has everything to do with the person initiating.  Their ability to influence others and their ties to the unit. An outsider, experienced or not, who joins a unit and wants to change things (even if they are well intentioned and correct.) will hit a brick wall. It took me several years to make changes in my Troop, and that was after serving as a highly visible youth leader and then adult volunteer. After about 3 or 4 years of working with the youth and adults, I was able to achieve a breakthrough and win some progress towards a stronger Troop Program. An outsider would have stood no chance. And mind you, this is a unit that is frequently held up my our District as a "Gold Standard" unit that other Troops should emulate. Still many thorny unfixed problems, like utilization of the Patrol method, and having a consistently engaging program. Now I'm "retired" from the troop and still volunteer with NYLT and my District.

Disestablishment folks have bad feelings about "institutional Scouters" (Wood Badge, Knots, DE's, Gold/Silver Tabs) because just like anything else, some people in those groups can be utterly annoying, and often wrong too. "Institutional Scouters" have built a bad reputation with many units, because they are frequently bossy, holier than thou, come around during FOS or Beading ceremonies, take up more time than they should and then disappear until they need something again. Not all of them mind you, but enough of them that it colors many people's perceptions.  In my own Troop, our 3rd Scoutmaster went to Wood Badge back in the late 90's. We didn't have another leader go until the 5th Scoutmaster and I went in 2015. In between we had one adult who transferred into our unit who had attended Wood Badge. They were clueless about how Scouting was supposed to be done. We actually discussed some of the broad points of this institutional distrust between Scouters, through Wood Badge specifically in this topic: https://www.scouter.com/topic/30580-wood-badge-roses-and-thorns/

 

For my entire Scouting life, my troop never had a UC. We finally got one in early 2020. He attended one meeting, and sent the current (6th) Scoutmaster a long email of suggestions and improvements. He has many good suggestions, some things I've attempted to implement over the last 9 years, and some that were fresh ideas. Our current Scoutmaster was a little taken aback by it. To me it's the exact wrong approach to helping a unit improve. Get to know us for a few weeks, build some relationships. Get to know our past, our goals, and our challenges before dropping unsolicited advice on people. 

There are really two types of disestablishment units. 1A. There are those that run pretty good programs, but their leadership had bad experiences with "Institutional folks" and doesn't want to engage with them. Then there are units that are unmitigated dumpster fires, both from a rule compliance perspective and a program quality perspective. Sometimes it's intentional 2A, sometimes it's out of ignorance 2B. 2A is entirely unfixable. 1A and 2B can be fixed by being a friendly and helpful face, showing some humility, and being a good partner. 

 

Let me try being even more clear.  "Presenting the colors" meant a color guard of uniformed Scouts walking down the center aisle carrying the national and respective religious flags, posting them on command, and leaving the room..  Not a wafer to be seen during that process.  Same at either Catholic or Methodist churches.  That Archbishop went away and his rule with him.  The new Archbishop did not "see" what the former Archbishop and you "see."

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2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

You and other parents take your kids to a highly politicized Pro-Life rally where adults call everybody names at these rallies all over the United Stand and you think the bias is because you're Catholics? You portray yourself as an activist who is using the youth to help push your cause. Something doesn't add up here. 

Barry

Watch the news?  Name-calling is bilaterally inflicted.  Want examples?

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