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Major Changes Announced -- Councils Impacted

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15 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Question is, who is buying?  Can surrounding ranches sell enough more cattle to finance the land acquisition?  Or outfit enough more BWCAW crews to buy the extra bases?  Sea Base is easier for me to see a purchaser.  This will be a fire sale.

If I recall correctly, JP Morgan has a 450 million dollar lien on Philmont.  I'm not sure what JPM would do with the land, but as you know it's pristine wilderness.  There may be a developer or two that would like the opportunity to turn it into exclusive properties for hunting, vacations, etc.

Edited by desertrat77

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1 hour ago, desertrat77 said:

If I recall correctly, JP Morgan has a 450 million dollar lien on Philmont.  I'm not sure what JPM would do with the land, but as you know it's pristine wilderness.  There may be a developer or two that would like the opportunity to turn it into exclusive properties for hunting, vacations, etc.

That's true, to secure existing debt per https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/.  But here's the problem I see, I did a quick search, and it's only one data point, but here's a listing for a ranch near Cimarron, https://www.landwatch.com/Colfax-County-New-Mexico-Farms-and-Ranches-for-sale/pid/337607531.  It has 50,658+/- acres, listed for $96M.  Do the math and it's roughly $1900/acre.  Assuming Philmont at 140,000 acres,  with a $450M mortgage, it's valued at just over $3200/acre.  That's a heck of a premium.

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13 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

That's true, to secure existing debt per https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/22/boy-scouts-mortgage-vast/.  But here's the problem I see, I did a quick search, and it's only one data point, but here's a listing for a ranch near Cimarron, https://www.landwatch.com/Colfax-County-New-Mexico-Farms-and-Ranches-for-sale/pid/337607531.  It has 50,658+/- acres, listed for $96M.  Do the math and it's roughly $1900/acre.  Assuming Philmont at 140,000 acres,  with a $450M mortgage, it's valued at just over $3200/acre.  That's a heck of a premium.

Thanks, much food for thought.  Perhaps they included infrastructure in the Philmont valuation?   Villa Philmonte is probably worth something, as is the infirmary and trading post on the CHQ side.  The rest of the buildings are cabins, shacks, and prefab structures.  Some of the senior staff housing is nice.  But that still doesn't seem to account for high premium on the Philmont land.  

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"Are the BSA programs aligned with today's young people?"

Which young people?

  • The young people who are already Scouts and enjoy it?
  • The young people who have never been Scouts?
  • The young people who left Scouting before aging out?
  •  The young people who are Scouts because their parents signed them up and make them go?

Surely after all this time BSA has done enough studies and research to know exactly why youth join Scouting, why youth stay in Scouting, why youth leave Scouting, and why youth choose not to join when given the opportunity.

I think a far better question would be:  "How do we replicate and propagate what active, growing units are doing?"  But of course, BSA already knows the answer to that one too.  It just lacks the will to impose the necessary standards and practices, even though the standards and practices are already well-documented in our publications and training materials.

And, frankly, I think BSA lacks the will here to impose discipline and direction on a loosey-goosey program that keeps trying new things for no apparent reason, then tinkers with them until they fail.  Where is Gordon Ramsay when you need him?

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1 hour ago, dkurtenbach said:

 Where is Gordon Ramsay when you need him?

I concur with your entire post, but I can't resist focusing on your inspired thought:  Gordon Ramsay in a new series, "BSA Nightmares"

Can you picture Gordon listening to a pro explain the BSA's registration and rechartering process?

Gordon (interrupting the pro):  "I have to ask...serious question, right...does any of this make sense to you?"

Pro (slightly off balance):  "Well, sure it does."

Gordon (rubbing his eyes):  "Oh my...unbelievable...."

Edited by desertrat77
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44 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

Can you picture Gordon listening to a pro explain the BSA's registration and rechartering process?

This is one area the GSUSA is simpler. You get a reminder to renew members for your unit for the next year. If you do it early, you get a patch (no discount). The unit leader checks boxes or chooses drop downs next to the Scouts and leaders renewing. It calculates the total (with local and national fees) and then you pay. 
 

Granted there is no “charter”, but one could picture that being a separate step to get your Institutional Head to sign a form or go online and check a box. If YPT isn’t up to date, the adult can’t be carried forward and they are marked inactive. If there aren’t the necessary adults, you can’t check out. 
 

I don’t understand. 

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14 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

"Are the BSA programs aligned with today's young people?"

Which young people?

  • The young people who are already Scouts and enjoy it?
  • The young people who have never been Scouts?
  • The young people who left Scouting before aging out?
  •  The young people who are Scouts because their parents signed them up and make them go?

Surely after all this time BSA has done enough studies and research to know exactly why youth join Scouting, why youth stay in Scouting, why youth leave Scouting, and why youth choose not to join when given the opportunity.

I think a far better question would be:  "How do we replicate and propagate what active, growing units are doing?"  But of course, BSA already knows the answer to that one too.  It just lacks the will to impose the necessary standards and practices, even though the standards and practices are already well-documented in our publications and training materials.

And, frankly, I think BSA lacks the will here to impose discipline and direction on a loosey-goosey program that keeps trying new things for no apparent reason, then tinkers with them until they fail.  Where is Gordon Ramsay when you need him?

Agree, given the situation back in July 2019, IMHO the focus should have been on more immediate priorities rather than let problems continue to fester - recharter fees, background check privacy issues, GSUSA trademark suit, transparency (survey issues), arrogance ...not musical chairs re-org, creating another IT roadmap, ...

3. Is the National Council effectively identifying and communicating with their stakeholders? 

3. How can National Council better listen and respond to the needs of scouts and volunteers?

"We did not do this in a bubble." Interviewed the Key 3 of 50 councils, all Regions, and half of the Areas,as well as members of the National Cabinet and half of the Executive Board members , also another online survey was done of 1000 or more volunteers and professionals... "and you know what we all have very similar thoughts on change. Some approach it differently, but we are more aligned than opposed."  Dan Ownby, Chair Elect

:huh: Sounds just like scouter.com :laugh:

My $0.02

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15 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

Where is Gordon Ramsay when you need him?

Fortunately, that foul mouthed cable TV personality is nowhere near my troop.  We don't need him.  Gordon Ramsay, and others like him, are not allowed in my home.  I am aghast at the suggestion that he be a role-model for leadership in BSA. 

Edited by David CO

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14 minutes ago, David CO said:

Fortunately, that foul mouthed cable TV personality is nowhere near my troop.  We don't need him.  Gordon Ramsay, and others like him, are not allowed in my home.  I am aghast at the suggestion that he be a role-model for leadership in BSA. 

He's a role model for cutting through nonsense, self-delusion, laziness, and rote adherence to the way things have always been done.  Good for rescuing failing organizations.  But not Scoutmaster material himself.

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13 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is one area the GSUSA is simpler. You get a reminder to renew members for your unit for the next year. If you do it early, you get a patch (no discount). The unit leader checks boxes or chooses drop downs next to the Scouts and leaders renewing. It calculates the total (with local and national fees) and then you pay. 
 

Granted there is no “charter”, but one could picture that being a separate step to get your Institutional Head to sign a form or go online and check a box. If YPT isn’t up to date, the adult can’t be carried forward and they are marked inactive. If there aren’t the necessary adults, you can’t check out. 
 

I don’t understand. 

Absolutely.  It shouldn't be as hard as it is.  CC or designee inputs/edits unit roster and payment info.  SM gets a notification, if all looks good clicks approve.  COR/IH get a notification, click approve.  Council registrar get a notification, clicks approve.  Done.

 

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I think  dkurtenbach was using Gordon Ramsey as an example that we need some no nonsense, asking the hard questions people cutting through some of these inefficient processes.

When a commissioner takes your charter and counts the names and does the multiplcation ($60x20 = 1200)  on a separate "special sheet" and then says "that matches your form"  it is unneccessary and makes the council look like they think we are idiots.   I hit send when the charter says no errors and refuse to participate in their nonsense. 

 

My pick would be John McEnroe whose favorite saying to the umpires was "you can't be serious".

 

And then it still takes 4 months to "process" through the black hole

Edited by PACAN
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20 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

"Are the BSA programs aligned with today's young people?"

Which young people?

  • The young people who are already Scouts and enjoy it?
  • The young people who have never been Scouts?
  • The young people who left Scouting before aging out?
  •  The young people who are Scouts because their parents signed them up and make them go?

Surely after all this time BSA has done enough studies and research to know exactly why youth join Scouting, why youth stay in Scouting, why youth leave Scouting, and why youth choose not to join when given the opportunity.

I think a far better question would be:  "How do we replicate and propagate what active, growing units are doing?"  But of course, BSA already knows the answer to that one too.  It just lacks the will to impose the necessary standards and practices, even though the standards and practices are already well-documented in our publications and training materials.

And, frankly, I think BSA lacks the will here to impose discipline and direction on a loosey-goosey program that keeps trying new things for no apparent reason, then tinkers with them until they fail.  Where is Gordon Ramsay when you need him?

"BSA already knows the answer to that one too.  It just lacks the will to impose the necessary standards and practices" ... 

"BSA lacks the will here to impose discipline and direction on a loosey-goosey program"

I agree in

  • scouting is often a loosey-goosey program.
  • BSA lack's the will

I disagree in that 

  • BSA does not know the answer to provide consistent quality.
  • BSA does not know the program they want to be.  JROTC?  Outward bound?  STEM?  Career?   Or, is it just all-things-to-all-people.
  • BSA depends too much on charismatic, high quality leaders as the answer to the program.  BUT, they can't consistently get those high quality leaders. 

In some ways, maybe the future is good.  BSA needs to slim down and decide what type of program it is.  BSA needs to trim off all the side programs and focus on the core.  It's just that BSA does not really know what that core is.  Perhaps, BSA should just use the 1910's handbook.   :)

Edited by fred8033
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2 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

For those concerned about it. (Or maybe just me.) Dan Ownby talks about ending programming at 18. It's at the 56:54-57:02 mark. 

https://nam.scouting.org/?fbclid=IwAR2JR-yD5DMXRgJLrJ_nKOffFqtplXH01rKAjPx4GnwNTHd2hFyIeys7Y0s

I’m starved for details. Does anyone else know what was covered by the key3 meeting or Friday’s meeting? I love how they planned to open up, but shut down The key3 at the last minute. Where I come from they call that “organizational snap-back”. Where the culture tried to change, but the old culture clawed back the old ways. 

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24 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

 Where I come from they call that “organizational snap-back”. Where the culture tried to change, but the old culture clawed back the old ways. 

Indeed, we see this on many episodes of Kitchen Nightmares with the aforementioned Gordon Ramsay.  The failing businesses share common traits:

- Dwindling customer base

- Lousy food (low quality, processed, microwaved, heat/serve) served at high price

- Poorly maintained plant/property/equipment

- Bad reputation in the community yet feeble or non-existent PR efforts

- Complicated menus and service options

- Too many rules for customers and staff

- Demoralized, poorly paid, overworked staff

- Confusing IT

- High debt

- Condescending, out of touch management style towards staff and customers alike

So Gordon attempts to turn them around, despite the foot dragging and "we've always done it this way!"  Shows them the path to success.  And more often than not, the minute he leaves, the owner/management goes right back to the old ways. 

Some organizations embrace a culture of failure and cannot tolerate success.

 

Edited by desertrat77
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