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69RoadRunner

Summit MB Camp Plans to Operate at Full Capacity

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure this is a good decision. As of today, we are moving from a now-closed Council camp to Summit's merit badge camp. We asked some questions including if they plan to reduce capacity. I was quite surprised that they intend to operate at full capacity.  Here's some other info we got from them.

a.  All troops will be required to monitor scouts and adults temperatures daily beginning 5 days prior to arrival. 

b. Temperature checks and additional screening will be done upon arrival and daily while we are there.   (So arrive early)

c. Face Masks/PPE will be required to be worn by all.   (Still working out those details.)

d.  Chow Hall will be run at 50% capacity and they are looking at having pre-packaged food for all meals.  So no one has to serve, or anything like that.    Yum, Yum!!

e. Scouts will be required to monitor temperatures for two weeks after leaving.  If anyone gets sick we must notify them immediately. 

f.  Merit Badges/Brown Sea Island will still be done but with PPE.    Not sure if PPE is just Face Masks or anything additional.    Need to bring your own face

masks. 

Edited by RememberSchiff
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Summit is huge.  They have vast camping sites, program areas and bath facilities because they can serve up to 50,000 during jamborees.  Having up to a few thousand wound be easy to handle.  If there is any place that could do this, it would be the Summit.

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Chow Hall at 50% capacity? Why not eat outside? Masked PL's stand in line 6' apart get pre-package meals and take outside to socially-distanced patrol members?

 

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This is not scout worthy.  This will encourage scouts from higher transmission areas to attend camp in a low transmission area and at full capacity no less. It's one thing to try and find a way to get scouts on an HA trip that has been two years in the planning, especially if there are kids in the crew who will age out. To me it's another thing entirely if you are just talking about getting kids to routine summer camp. They'll live if they miss a summer. Do we really think we are that important that we need to risk importing kids from all over? And what happens if there is an outbreak at that facility? What if it spreads to the community?

 

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3 hours ago, 69RoadRunner said:

 

d.  Chow Hall will be run at 50% capacity and they are looking at having pre-packaged food for all meals.  So no one has to serve, or anything like that.    Yum, Yum!!

 

Maybe they should try patrol method cooking. They might actually learn how great this for summer camp.

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Posted (edited)

I find it interesting that no one is publishing their plans for what happens if someone becomes symptomatic and/or tests positive while at the camp.

What happens if Johnny scout spikes a fever on Wednesday?  What if he spikes a fever and starts coughing?  Is there testing available?  What kind of test is it, the kind that is readable that day or the kind that takes a three day turn around?  Does his troop all go home?  Do they go home in individual or all together packed six to a car?  What about the staff members who were in direct contact with him?  Who goes into two week quarantine, where do they do that?

The strength of a plan is not what happens if everything goes well, but rather what happens when things start going wrong.

Edited by T2Eagle
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1 minute ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that no one is publishing their plans for what happens if someone becomes symptomatic and/or tests positive while at the camp.

What happens if Johnny scout spikes a fever on Wednesday?  What if he spikes a fever and starts coughing?  Is there testing available?  What kind of test is it, the kind that is readable that day or the kind that takes a three day turn around?  Does his troop all go home?  Do they go home in individual or all together packed six to a car?  What about the staff members who were in direct contact with him?  Who goes into two week quarantine, where do they do that?

The strength of a plan is not what happens if everything goes well, but rather what happens when things start going wrong.

Many camps were waiting on guidelines to be published by ACA, the guidelines (82 pages) were just released yesterday (use link below and click on - Download Field Guide for Camp).  I expect camps will be reviewing these and releasing their own guidelines.

https://www.acacamps.org/resource-library/coronavirus/camp-business/camp-operations-guide-summer-2020

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Note … after reading this 82 page document, there is no way our Troop will be willing to take on putting up our own summer camp.  We were initially talking about this option, but it is a no go now.  If our summer camp is cancelled or if there are not enough families interested, we will cancel this year.  

We talked with a lawyer friend about this issue… he said that if his kid ended up with Covid-19 from a camp, he would sue the Troop leaders, charter org, council and national and let the courts figure out who pays what.  It will be tough enough for council camps to comply with all 82 pages … I know our Troop will not be able to without a council camp structure.

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19 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

I find it interesting that no one is publishing their plans for what happens if someone becomes symptomatic and/or tests positive while at the camp.

What happens if Johnny scout spikes a fever on Wednesday?  What if he spikes a fever and starts coughing?  Is there testing available?  What kind of test is it, the kind that is readable that day or the kind that takes a three day turn around?  Does his troop all go home?  Do they go home in individual or all together packed six to a car?  What about the staff members who were in direct contact with him?  Who goes into two week quarantine, where do they do that?

The strength of a plan is not what happens if everything goes well, but rather what happens when things start going wrong.

Ultimately, this echoes my concerns with the BSA trying to run the HABs.  Physical distancing needs to be maintained- that means carpools are out the window.  You can't physically distance with 5 people in a 5 passenger vehicle, and Everyone is going to need to do shared transportation getting to a HAB.  our council seems to be thinking they are going to go ahead, on a pushed back start, for resident camp.  Their initial guidance is no where near complete or comprehensive, but the first item addresses that temperature checks will be conducted on arrival to everyone that arrives with the scout, and if anyone has a temperature of 100.4+, all individuals arriving in that vehicle will be barred from entering camp.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Note … after reading this 82 page document, there is no way our Troop will be willing to take on putting up our own summer camp.  We were initially talking about this option, but it is a no go now.  If our summer camp is cancelled or if there are not enough families interested, we will cancel this year.  

We talked with a lawyer friend about this issue… he said that if his kid ended up with Covid-19 from a camp, he would sue the Troop leaders, charter org, council and national and let the courts figure out who pays what.  It will be tough enough for council camps to comply with all 82 pages … I know our Troop will not be able to without a council camp structure.

Would your lawyer friend sue if their kid got bronchitis or the flu from camp? If camp opened against health codes, or violated established codes, I could see a lawsuit. Otherwise, being able to sue people because I got an illness from them sounds ridiculous (although I am not a lawyer.) How would they prove the kid got COVID at camp and didn't have it asymptomatically before camp?  

Personally, I think camp and HA should be cancelled, but the liability piece is fascinating. 

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3 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Would your lawyer friend sue if their kid got bronchitis or the flu from camp? If camp opened against health codes, or violated established codes, I could see a lawsuit. Otherwise, being able to sue people because I got an illness from them sounds ridiculous (although I am not a lawyer.) How would they prove the kid got COVID at camp and didn't have it asymptomatically before camp?  

Personally, I think camp and HA should be cancelled, but the liability piece is fascinating. 

Not sure … I think the fact that Covid is a declared pandemic present in our community and the others are not would play a factor.  

Our ASM asked the lawyer friend as the ASM started to get a bit concerned about personal liability when another parent, lawyer, asked what would be our plan if someone got sick and we were sued.  We thought we would be safe from lawsuits by attending a council camp.  The lawyer said he wouldn't care … his answer was basically sue everyone and see what sticks.  In the end, we decided to still look at going to a council camp and emphasize to parents that there is no guarantees and we will do our best.  We also discussed some additional permission slip to reduce our legal liability (I know those don't work well).

The bigger impact the conversation had was on us putting on our own camp in the middle of a pandemic.  If we could follow the ACA guidance then perhaps … but we know there would probably be gaps that then could open us up the real legal fallout (and also put scouts at risk).  Perhaps other areas would have lower legal risk, but our town seems to be lawsuit happy.

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Not sure … I think the fact that Covid is a declared pandemic present in our community and the others are not would play a factor.  

Our ASM asked the lawyer friend as the ASM started to get a bit concerned about personal liability when another parent, lawyer, asked what would be our plan if someone got sick and we were sued.  We thought we would be safe from lawsuits by attending a council camp.  The lawyer said he wouldn't care … his answer was basically sue everyone and see what sticks.  In the end, we decided to still look at going to a council camp and emphasize to parents that there is no guarantees and we will do our best.  We also discussed some additional permission slip to reduce our legal liability (I know those don't work well).

The bigger impact the conversation had was on us putting on our own camp in the middle of a pandemic.  If we could follow the ACA guidance then perhaps … but we know there would probably be gaps that then could open us up the real legal fallout (and also put scouts at risk).  Perhaps other areas would have lower legal risk, but our town seems to be lawsuit happy.

Interesting. What responsibility does a parent have for their own child if they send them someplace knowing that the coronavirus is out there and a danger? Can I sue the grocery store if I get coronavirus there? If I had kids, and I took them to the grocery store and they got sick, can I sue the store? (Assuming I can prove it?) At what point are we responsible for ourselves and our families? We all know the virus is out there, and it's a risk, and anybody who can promise 100% safety from it is a liar. If 100% safety from the virus is the standard, then nothing is opening until there is a vaccine. We aren't holding other activities or businesses to that standard. 

I can see if it's something negligent and someone gets harmed, like a structure collapse, or a fire, or even a food borne illness. 

That being said, it's just too early, and while we are in this early phase of the pandemic, Scout Camp is a luxury that just doesn't need to happen. Hopefully by next Summer, vaccine or not, we'll be able to have summer camps again. 

 

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My statement to parents, whether the unit goes forward with attending Council camp or we do our own extended outing later in the summer, the parents must make the call on whether or not to send their child.  Camp/we intend to do what we can to mitigate risks, but if the parent has any hesitations, it is their call on assuming risk of sending their child.  No one is saying it is 100% safe.  Attendance is not mandatory, it is at will.

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28 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

Interesting. What responsibility does a parent have for their own child if they send them someplace knowing that the coronavirus is out there and a danger? Can I sue the grocery store if I get coronavirus there? If I had kids, and I took them to the grocery store and they got sick, can I sue the store? (Assuming I can prove it?) At what point are we responsible for ourselves and our families? We all know the virus is out there, and it's a risk, and anybody who can promise 100% safety from it is a liar. If 100% safety from the virus is the standard, then nothing is opening until there is a vaccine. We aren't holding other activities or businesses to that standard. 

I can see if it's something negligent and someone gets harmed, like a structure collapse, or a fire, or even a food borne illness. 

That being said, it's just too early, and while we are in this early phase of the pandemic, Scout Camp is a luxury that just doesn't need to happen. Hopefully by next Summer, vaccine or not, we'll be able to have summer camps again. 

 

The child would be the plaintiff.  He or she might sue the parents too in most states - probably would if they have insurance.  The jury would apportion fault.  The "Sue them all and let God sort it out" is a typical PI lawyer approach. Given that both God and Satan have been sued, you can sue the store. Winning is another question.  "Negligence" is using less than "ordinary reasonable care."  100% is not the standard, in theory - simply less than orc.  

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40 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

My statement to parents, whether the unit goes forward with attending Council camp or we do our own extended outing later in the summer, the parents must make the call on whether or not to send their child.  Camp/we intend to do what we can to mitigate risks, but if the parent has any hesitations, it is their call on assuming risk of sending their child.  No one is saying it is 100% safe.  Attendance is not mandatory, it is at will.

We did the same … "if you are not comfortable, do not send your son to camp".  We also emphasized that while we will enforce rules and expect scouts to follow them, there will be times where there will be no direct adult supervision.  I would rather have parents not send kids than have them send them thinking we are guaranteeing 100% chance of no infection.

I am concerned as I think this summer may be the best chance to camp within the next 9 - 12 months.  The virus spread may actually be higher in the fall, winter and next spring.  I think the risk is actually pretty low right now, given number of infections in my area, which is why we are looking to camp now.

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