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Wow,wow,wow!!!  I couldn't agree more.   Scouting is not a classroom and is not done is a classroom setting.  Your observations are spot on.  Merit badges provide kids with an introduction to a wide world of subjects taught by subject matter experts.  These experts don't need the latest technological teaching aids.  The mb councilor covers the requirements and ensures that the scout has completed the requirements, no more and no less.  Merit badges used to require a scout to locate a councilor, call him/her and make an appointment, go to the appointment, and complete the merit badge.  Youth protection guidelines make this a little challenging,  but that's not the subject here.  This actually helped prepare the scout for real life where these skills can be applied to job applications, interviews,  and presenting material to people they may not know.  Somewhere some committee has skewed and reversed this process and has focused on the teaching aspect rather then the learning.  I don't think that one required merit badge should be offered at a merit badge university because the groups are too big and each scout can not possibly complete every requirement.  Often times a badge is awarded just for showing up. For a personal example, kids who show up with a budget earn personal management in one or two one hour sessions because the requirements are just reviewed and briefly mentioned.  I deliberately would not allow my grandson to complete this merit badge in this way.  I drove him 50 miles to a reputable councilor who had him come back 4 times,  was that was 4 100mile round trips, that's 400 miles.  He EARNED that badge.  I even heard one ASM make the statement "why bother, my son gen get all the required merit badges at merit badge university".  I also agree that PLs, ASPLs, SPLs, Troop Guides, and Instructors should be "signing the books" and they should be using the well publicized EDGE method to do it!  We need to put the outdoor world back into Scouting, get out of the classroom, and let our troop leaders LEAD and not just wear a patch.

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1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow,wow,wow!!!  I couldn't agree more.   Scouting is not a classroom and is not done is a classroom setting.  Your observations are spot on.  Merit badges provide kids with an introduction to a wide world of subjects taught by subject matter experts.  These experts don't need the latest technological teaching aids.  The mb councilor covers the requirements and ensures that the scout has completed the requirements, no more and no less.  Merit badges used to require a scout to locate a councilor, call him/her and make an appointment, go to the appointment, and complete the merit badge.  Youth protection guidelines make this a little challenging,  but that's not the subject here.  This actually helped prepare the scout for real life where these skills can be applied to job applications, interviews,  and presenting material to people they may not know.  Somewhere some committee has skewed and reversed this process and has focused on the teaching aspect rather then the learning.  I don't think that one required merit badge should be offered at a merit badge university because the groups are too big and each scout can not possibly complete every requirement.  Often times a badge is awarded just for showing up. For a personal example, kids who show up with a budget earn personal management in one or two one hour sessions because the requirements are just reviewed and briefly mentioned.  I deliberately would not allow my grandson to complete this merit badge in this way.  I drove him 50 miles to a reputable councilor who had him come back 4 times,  was that was 4 100mile round trips, that's 400 miles.  He EARNED that badge.  I even heard one ASM make the statement "why bother, my son gen get all the required merit badges at merit badge university".  I also agree that PLs, ASPLs, SPLs, Troop Guides, and Instructors should be "signing the books" and they should be using the well publicized EDGE method to do it!  We need to put the outdoor world back into Scouting, get out of the classroom, and let our troop leaders LEAD and not just wear a patch.

Many scouts roll their eyes at the MB program.  Scouts see it as an overlapping and a shallow dive into topics already deeply covered at school and covered better.   

Scouting should NOT be about sitting in meetings.  MBs should not be class room based.  Scouting should NOT be about adults holding the hands of the scouts.  .

It hurts when troop leaders or parents arrange MB events and makes it so that scouts need to just show up.  If adults make the arrangements, the MB event should be special and memorable.  For example, scouts scheduling a canoe trip.  I think it's okay for adults to make sure a canoeing MB counselor is registered on the trip.  Scouts could then talk to the counselor.  If scouts want to weld and metal work, I think it's okay for a troop to arrange a welding event ... if it's special.

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I've coordinated a few virtual MB sessions for our troop over the past month, and have a few more in the planning stages as we are not getting out of stay-at-home orders until end of May at the earliest.  I have not been the counselor for all, but I have insisted that the other counselors not just turn them into force-fed sessions.  Talk about a requirement, then give it to the Scout to do as homework is basically what I am getting at.  Already had one parent upset that I wasn't planning a follow-up session to go over things afterwards.  I have given every Scout, and parent, freedom to contact me with any questions via email or phone, and willing to do Zoom sessions with them individually if they are stuck, but I am not going to handhold during this time, the same as I did not  before all of this.  I feel the same way about Merit Badge Colleges/Fairs/Midways- the kid needs to do the work, it ain't about home much face time they have with me.

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2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

...the kid needs to do the work...

I "prefer" to emphasize differently.  It's NOT about completing homework or bringing their homework to the MB session.  That's a counselor driven "this is what I need to see" aka teacher/student style.  The MB program is more mentorship or on-the-job training.  

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33 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I "prefer" to emphasize differently.  It's NOT about completing homework or bringing their homework to the MB session.  That's a counselor driven "this is what I need to see" aka teacher/student style.  The MB program is more mentorship or on-the-job training.  

I agree with you.  In my case we are talking about Cit in the Nation, and the letter requirement.  I have no problem giving the group instructions and advice on topics, how to find the name/address (or in most cases the website to fill it out as an electronic submission), but I am not going to write the letter for them, nor spoon feed it so I have all 7 kids writing the exact same letter.  That is where the one-on-one would come in, but I still want them writing a draft and we go over it together to refine it.  This parent seems to think I should tell them exactly what to write, which is not going to happen with this guy.

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59 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Many scouts roll their eyes at the MB program.  Scouts see it as an overlapping and a shallow dive into topics already deeply covered at school and covered better.   

 

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Scouting is not a classroom and is not done is a classroom setting. 

The underlying issue seems, to me at least, that "learning a skill" is ithe end goal. Rather than that, "using the skill" would encourage more participation, less school, and fix all the other things we don't like about merit badges. I suppose this applies to all advancement. Anyway, taking a merit badge should be the first step in doing something scoutish and not a goal in itself. I'd much rather see a patrol say "let's make a giant 8 person bike - let's take welding MB" then the usual "I gotta sign up for something at mbu and cit nation is required so I'll do that one." Making learning skills a tool to help patrols have fun would be much better. Again, there's confusion about what the goal of scouting is, especially among the scouts.

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Many scouts roll their eyes at the MB program.  Scouts see it as an overlapping and a shallow dive into topics already deeply covered at school and covered better.   

Sadly that is not the case everywhere. I was working with a group on Citizenship in the Nation MB. All of the Scouts had Civics in School. I also had a 5th grade Webelos with me, my son, who had a US History class that went over the Constitution as part of the class. NONE OF THE SCOUTS COULD DO THAT PART OF THE MB! (emphasis). The Webelos knew it well. When I asked the Scouts what they learned in school, they told me the teacher told them to use their laptops, and didn't really do anything.

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34 minutes ago, MattR said:

Again, there's confusion about what the goal of scouting is, especially among the scouts.

That is a root problem.  Confusion is often willful too.  Many don't really care about the goal as much as the certificate.

At some point, I think Eagle would be better reflected by 125+ nights of troop camping and a variety of experiences.  

 

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4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow,wow,wow!!!  I couldn't agree more.   Scouting is not a classroom and is not done is a classroom setting.  Your observations are spot on.  Merit badges provide kids with an introduction to a wide world of subjects taught by subject matter experts.  These experts don't need the latest technological teaching aids.  The mb councilor covers the requirements and ensures that the scout has completed the requirements, no more and no less.  Merit badges used to require a scout to locate a councilor, call him/her and make an appointment, go to the appointment, and complete the merit badge.  Youth protection guidelines make this a little challenging,  but that's not the subject here.  This actually helped prepare the scout for real life where these skills can be applied to job applications, interviews,  and presenting material to people they may not know.  Somewhere some committee has skewed and reversed this process and has focused on the teaching aspect rather then the learning.  I don't think that one required merit badge should be offered at a merit badge university because the groups are too big and each scout can not possibly complete every requirement.  Often times a badge is awarded just for showing up. For a personal example, kids who show up with a budget earn personal management in one or two one hour sessions because the requirements are just reviewed and briefly mentioned.  I deliberately would not allow my grandson to complete this merit badge in this way.  I drove him 50 miles to a reputable councilor who had him come back 4 times,  was that was 4 100mile round trips, that's 400 miles.  He EARNED that badge.  I even heard one ASM make the statement "why bother, my son gen get all the required merit badges at merit badge university".  I also agree that PLs, ASPLs, SPLs, Troop Guides, and Instructors should be "signing the books" and they should be using the well publicized EDGE method to do it!  We need to put the outdoor world back into Scouting, get out of the classroom, and let our troop leaders LEAD and not just wear a patch.

BSA - ineptitude enthroned over Scouting.

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1 hour ago, MattR said:

 

The underlying issue seems, to me at least, that "learning a skill" is ithe end goal. Rather than that, "using the skill" would encourage more participation, less school, and fix all the other things we don't like about merit badges. I suppose this applies to all advancement. Anyway, taking a merit badge should be the first step in doing something scoutish and not a goal in itself. I'd much rather see a patrol say "let's make a giant 8 person bike - let's take welding MB" then the usual "I gotta sign up for something at mbu and cit nation is required so I'll do that one." Making learning skills a tool to help patrols have fun would be much better. Again, there's confusion about what the goal of scouting is, especially among the scouts.

One's "learning" of a skill is only demonstrated by use of that skill.  All else is theory. YMDNV

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13 hours ago, MattR said:

The underlying issue seems, to me at least, that "learning a skill" is the end goal.

Oh, I think that receiving a badge is usually the end goal.  Not learning a skill, not exploring a new subject or career field.  Why?  Because in Cub Scouts we train youth and parents that earning a badge or pin or belt loop or other doo-dad is the achievement.  And we train them to think that the more badges received, the better the Scout.  And that carries over into ScoutsBSA.  To be fair, that is perfectly understandable.  Badges and other awards received are like grades in school:  the only easily-understandable way for Scouts and parents to measure whether they are getting anything out of the program.

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I've seen far too many scouts take the same course every year long after they earned the badge to think the little round medallion was the goal.

Skill mastery in a wide range of areas is definitely BSA's most valuable asset.

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1 minute ago, qwazse said:

I've seen far too many scouts take the same course every year long after they earned the badge to think the little round medallion was the goal.

Skill mastery in a wide range of areas is definitely BSA's most valuable asset.

Sadly, in my experience that is the exact opposite from what I am seeing. And adults are not helping with the matter either. I had a scout who took a MB class a 2nd time for fun.  When another troop's SM found out about it, he said the Scout was wasting his time. I have seen too many Scouts just want the badge and don't care about anything else. I have had SMs upset with me because I would not give their Scouts MBs that they did not earn at summer camp and the 2 MB Colleges I taught at. I am told that is one reason why I have not been asked to teach the MB again, I give out partials.

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