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ItsBrian

Are your Resident Camps/Summer Camps opening?

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7 hours ago, MacBrave said:

Crossroads of America Council has just cancelled all their summer camps for 2020, although they are offering an "Adventure Box" option for Cub Scouts and a virtual "Summer Experience" for Scouts BSA units:  https://www.crossroadsbsa.org/resources/camp-2020/

 

The cub scout box looks interesting. I hope my council does something similar if they close this summer.

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If our summer camp closes, we won't be doing anything as a troop.  🙁

Most of our families feel that if it's not safe enough for traditional summer camp, then it's not safe for our scouts to get together in any capacity.  

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We are betting that our summer camp will be cancelled. I am looking into options to give the Scouts.  They stem from going to the local Scout camp and doing our own program, to going out of town on a 5 day lollygag.

We will have challenges. We do have some Scouts who may not be bale to do anything due to immunosuppressed parents. Other may not think it's safe. We will get that input first.

 

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We are currently discussing running our own sort of mini-camp the same week we were going to attend summer camp.  Depends on a number things, one of course parent buy-in as to the safety of such an activity.   Will also depends if our state (Indiana) is in the appropriate "stage" as laid out by our Governor and his team.

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We had a committee meeting the other night, and there was a near unanimous consensus strongly opposed to doing any group camping this summer.  Many, maybe most, of the people in the meeting were themselves or a spouse already working in essential work places, and they were already uncomfortable with the risk that put themselves and their families.  Adding to that risk just wasn't in the cards.  We're going to look for some creative ways to maybe get together for some smaller parallel activities like a fishing meet up or something similar.  But it's highly doubtful we'll get together as a group until something significant changes in our understanding of the nature of the risks involved in doing that.

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We have altered our start date for summer camp for later in July. Most of our parents are techies and have been working from home, kids have been out of school for a month. If youth campgrounds reopen in June we hope to do patrol campouts to keep the group small. None of scouts or parents have been exposed or know somene who was but those at risk or have parents, siblings or granparents at risk will be asked to not go.

We are doing a shakeout trip in June in the national forest to get ready for Philmont. Small crews of < 10, no stopping for food or gas along the way. This will be mid week to avoid people and we will primitive camp in the forest.

 

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I have received 100% confidence from camp staff that our Resident Camp June 7 will be safe.  Yes, 100%

 

🙄

  • Haha 1

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24 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I have received 100% confidence from camp staff that our Resident Camp June 7 will be safe.  Yes, 100%

 

🙄

If this was a BSA council camp, please send it to me.   

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8 minutes ago, RichardB said:

If this was a BSA council camp, please send it to me.   

It is a council camp, and I was assured of the 100% safety after I expressed my concerns and I have no intention of attending this year.  Certainly not in June.

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35 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

It is a council camp, and I was assured of the 100% safety after I expressed my concerns and I have no intention of attending this year.  Certainly not in June.

May I ask what state? They aren’t waiting a little bit longer to be confidence?? 😂😂

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Just now, ItsBrian said:

May I ask what state? They aren’t waiting a little bit longer to be confidence?? 😂😂

Its Circle 10.... Texas

They are going to put 6 people to a table in the dining hall instead of 10 as well as take temp checks.  Oh, and hand sanitizer.

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I am removing names and precise locations from this conversation, because this was not in a public forum.

Me:  Unfortunately we have decided that *****and I are not attending Resident Camp in June.  I realize right now its an issue of more testing, but the numbers in just ***** County are climbing quickly and with recent developments allowing more business to open up I feel those numbers will go significantly in the next few weeks.  My opinion is that it is a huge mistake on the part of the state govt to loosen restrictions.  Not based on media reports, but because I feel I understand how disease transmission works,  I am also troubled by how this cootie presents itself in younger people and not even frontline doctors and nurses understand whats going on.  Going to hang out with people from all over the ****** in a few weeks and eat in the same place, use the same restrooms, etc is not something I want to put my family in the middle of.  I am sure it will be suggested that people can't live in fear forever and have to get on with life, but IF I end up getting corona, I had rather put it off as long as possible until they have better treatment options.  As soon as permitted I am all for returning to meetings (which should be the first step for several weeks before ANY camp opens) and get back into the swing of things.

 

Them:  National and council have been having MANY meetings on this very topic, and based on copious amounts of highly reputable data and epidemiology from those way more qualified than anyone in this group, they have jointly developed a highly controlled set of precautions procedures to ensure the safety and health of scouts and scouter/parents attending camp. I have 100% confidence in these new policies, camp staff and the participants attending that this will be a safe, healthy and fun learning environment for our campers.

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59 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

... 100% confidence ... that our Resident Camp June 7 will be safe.  Yes, 100% ...

 

24 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

... the 100% safety ...

Without denying the possibility of intentional obfuscation, there could be a receiver-operator thing going on here.

Only a fool would look at any cadre of kids and say they are 100% safe -- as in zero accidents, injuries, or infections will occur every day they are at camp.

One might with 100% confidence be able to say that they are safe relative to being at home for that week. That's no consolation to the parent who is 100% confident that their child is 100% safe at home over the same time.

The entire framework of Bayesian statistics is built around a proposition that people have a different confidences for a range of values so that:

  • Camp director is 100% confident that campers will be 80% safe, 90% confident that campers will be 85% safe, 20% confident that that they will be 90% safe, 10% confident that they will be 95% safe and 0% confident that they will be more than 99% safe. This is mainly because they've seen thousands of campers, talked to dozens of regulators.
    • It's not because they've seen a slew of campers during a pandemic.
  • Unit leader is 100% confident that campers will be 50% safe, 80% confident that they will be 75% safe, 10% confident that they will be 80% safe, and 0% confident that they will be more than 99% safe. This is mainly because he/she knows that one of those campers is going to pull out a Frisbee or a football, and things will go south fast (especially if the ASM emeritus picks up said toy after all the kids handled it). And he/she has parents that have experienced this from ground level. On the other hand ...
    • It's not because they've seen a slew of kids at home in the summer during a pandemic.

These are what we call prior probabilities of a utility function. (It's more complex than that because the root question is "safe from what?", and each calamity comes with a different distribution. But, I've over simplified to make a point.) If you are in a community who believes 20% unsafe is happening at home anyway, then your money is on the camp director. If you're in a community that doesn't even see 2% unsafe happening at home, you're money is on the unit leader.

Those decision points, needless to say vary. I have 4 health care workers coming into my house every day (one sleeps here). Two more of us are essential workers with travel papers. Another is running our elder-care errands as needed (i.e., taking our elder to for drives that include a McD's shake and burger). I'm more confident that this bug will find me at home than at camp (which, as I've said, is patrol cooking). I don't expect anyone else to be running the same gambit.

But, anyone who wants to pull the 100% confident rhetoric can talk to the hand. (Once I put my gloves on.)

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Councils can follow the advice of state and local health officials and operate summer camps, as long as the insurance companies are in accord.  For instance, some governors (Maryland, for example) have already declared that camping is again on the "allowed" list of things that are safe to do if precautions are taken (there might be youth camp-specific declarations as well).  If state officials approve and if the insurance companies say they will cover the liability of summer camp operations, a council is then in the position to consider opening.  Of course the council cannot operate a camp recklessly (without taking precautions, such as allowing infected persons to serve on staff).

The previous positing makes clear that every child in Scouting risks injury (and even death) by being exposed to the hazards of life present in the Scouting setting.  I note the recent suit against a council because a tree was blown over on top of a tent and tragically killed a Scout.  I am guessing that over the long term, the risk to a child while camping with a Troop at a BSA facility is less than the risk while camping with a family in a public or commercial camping facility.  The question will always be whether a Scouting activity should be disallowed because of the presence of unreasonable risk.

The 100% example is a good one, because it shows that a person who insists on that standard will never be able to have their child participate in … anything.  Any council or unit that represents to parents that a camp is 100% safe risks becoming a guarantor of any and all bad outcomes, even if the risk is reasonable.

Councils should make reasonable decisions based on localized information and their ability to implement reasonable precautions.

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@Cburkhardt  Here is what is on the Maryland DNR page..not a ringing endorsement of large attendance camps.  Did you see something else?

 

CAMPING

Effective Thursday, May 7, at 7 a.m., DNR will begin accepting reservations for overnight tent and RV camping in state forests, parks, and other campgrounds, however:

  • Campers must be with immediate family members or people with which they reside.
  • Guidance on social distancing must be followed.
  • No parties or reservations for more than 10 people will be granted for any one site.

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