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2 hours ago, RainShine said:

Related, we now have patrol corners during every troop meeting. At the last one the Scouts in one patrol decided to have a sleepover at one of the guys house. He asked his mom and dad, they will both be home, but neither are registered. They're just regular parents. Obviously no other adults, like me, will be there.

I didn't block it at the time. I'm more of a 'go for it, that sounds cool' kind of guy. But now I realize I should have blocked it. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

It was their idea. They were on the far side of the room, no adults could hear what they were saying. I only got wind of it later. They are going to order pizza and play video games and hang out. But... I will shut it down.

I agree with @walk in the woods - this sounds like two friends getting together, not a Scouting event.  I would not step in.

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So, let us change this to a merit badge counselor.  We tell the scouts they visit the counselor in pairs or more, or they take a parent or sibling with them if at the counselor's home.  That has been the norm, as I understand it.  

What I see happening in these responses is that we are suggesting that two deep MUST always be two actual registered adults.  First, the MB visit is a scouting activity, but it is independent if it is done as most would agree, in a manner that helps the scout learn to deal with this kind of interaction with adults.  If we then say that there has to be a second registered adult there, not just a parent, sibling, or other scout, then we change the paradigm completely.  I think the term common sense needs to be reinserted.  Follow the rules:  No one on one out of hearing or sight of other people.  Parents, even if not actually registered, should meet the two adult rule for group gatherings.  Other youth meet the standard of no one on one, adult and youth, as long as other adults are around.  Again, the absolute thing is no one on one, out of site and hearing of others.  A conference can be done in a corner with others nearby and within view. In most cases, the conference would likely be less honest if it could not be between the scout and the leader.  We also need to be sure that the youth understand the need for a "distant privacy" on occasion.  They may not want other youth or adults to hear their discussion in a conference, whether a rank conference, or a corrective one. 

We need to not over-react, nor under think.  

 

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I follow YPT as closely as I can but I realize some of it is to cover BSA's neck. Sometimes you have to use commonsense or your child wouldn't be able to have a social life.

 

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3 hours ago, yknot said:

I follow YPT as closely as I can but I realize some of it is to cover BSA's neck. Sometimes you have to use commonsense or your child wouldn't be able to have a social life.

Amen

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13 hours ago, yknot said:

I follow YPT as closely as I can but I realize some of it is to cover BSA's neck. Sometimes you have to use commonsense or your child wouldn't be able to have a social life.

 

I just want to clarify that I follow YPT religiously when I am in a scouting environment. What I am talking about is when my son is outside of the scouting environment and wants me to take him and a couple friends to a movie. Or if a couple friends want to come over and have a nerf war. 
 

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33 minutes ago, yknot said:

I just want to clarify that I follow YPT religiously when I am in a scouting environment. What I am talking about is when my son is outside of the scouting environment and wants me to take him and a couple friends to a movie. Or if a couple friends want to come over and have a nerf war. 
 

I feel that is how most of us try and act inside the scouting environment.  Where we come into conflict is with the rules that scouting has set in place when we as adult scouters interact with youth scouts outside of the scouting program.  It is a catch-22 situation.  Under the rules set by scouting in the above situation if none of the youth besides your child is a scout you do not fall under the scouting YPT, but if one of them is also a scout you do fall under scouting YPT since you are a registered adult. 

This is my understanding of Scouting YPT rules. 

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It truly is a mess trying to actually abide by the rules. We have the issue with eagle projects now. A scout is working with his mentor or his parent and a group of scouts on some eagle work days and now that has to be 2 leaders present, when you only have a few leaders in your troop to begin with, it's friggin hard, leaders only have so much time and it seems like scouts just assumes that all you want to do is scouting stuff 24x7 365.

 

So lets ask another technical question. Going by the letter of the law, Can a leader drive to a campout with 4 scouts in the car.There's now only 1 leader present.

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We have our own building.  Pack meets there, Troop meets there, GS Troop meets there.  Its over 3,000 square feet.  There is a Cub Room, a Troop Room, a conference room in the middle, a kitchen and a restroom  with two separate toilets in their own little room, one marked adults only. 

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2 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

So lets ask another technical question. Going by the letter of the law, Can a leader drive to a campout with 4 scouts in the car.There's now only 1 leader present.

This has been asked before, and the answer is yes.

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3 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

So lets ask another technical question. Going by the letter of the law, Can a leader drive to a campout with 4 scouts in the car.There's now only 1 leader present.

Yes.  As long as that leader is not the only one present at the camp out, he/she is fine.

We had a situation last summer with a unit whose second registered leader cancelled as they were on the way to pick him up to go to an out of state summer camp.  That remaining leader had a choice of cancelling the trip without notice (NO REFUND POLICY at the camp we attended), or going ahead and driving all day, knowing that they were sharing a campsite with another troop (us).  They were within YPT guidelines in the car, as there was no one on one contact, 1 adult and 4 scouts.  We had 4 adults with us for the week, so there was technically no violation at camp (YPT does not state that the second registered leader be from your unit, just be registered and present at the activity).  They made sure that there were no times that he was alone in the campsite with just one scout, there was always at least one of us present with him.  Not the ideal situation, but considering the circumstances, it was a workable one.

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Yes, BSA YP rules are there to protect the Scout AND the Scouter.  They make good sense.  

And, like most all of the Scout rules (Promise, Law, G2SS, Safe Swim Defense, Totin' Chip,  la la la....) they make sense outside of Scouting too.   If you are "outside" of Scouting  (back yard Nerf war ?) the ramifications may be different, but the ideas are the same, yes?   Transparency,  witnesses,   safe behavior  (nerf war?  Don't aim for eyes, etc. ) , it all boils down to the same thing.   Playing the "What If Game".   We have the Safe Guides in the front of all the Handbooks for that purpose.  Yes, some parents do not want to have "that" conversation with their urchin, but BSA makes the reminder. And it is at the very least THOUGHT about.  Progress is made, protection is gained,  someone is unknowingly saved .  

My Scoutson (hey, he's almost 26) says he embarrasses  himself sometimes when he encourages the older guys he works with to be more careful with the log splitter and axes and tractors and combines.  But he thinks he has made them more safety conscious thereby.  Third, maybe fourth hand lessons passed on?  Same with YP Guidelines.....   They are intended to "make ya think." 

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14 minutes ago, SSScout said:

they make sense outside of Scouting too.  

There is no way I would apply YP outside of scouting.  It doesn't make sense, and it's not practical.  I think most people would quit scouting if it meant they had to follow YP in their everyday lives.  

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

here is no way I would apply YP outside of scouting.  It doesn't make sense, and it's not practical.  I think most people would quit scouting if it meant they had to follow YP in their everyday lives.  

Well, that is not what was meant.  True, no one HAS to follow BSA training guidelines outside of the world of BSA .

The Scouting Rules  may not have any BSA consequence outside of Scouting, but they can still help guide one's actions .  What was it the philosopher said,  common sense ain't so common?   Protecting one's reputation and safety is a good thing no matter where one is.   This is why most schools and offices and sunday school buildings now have windows in the doors (think back.  Did your class room have a window in the door? ) and ask that the teachers not be alone with students or office mates.   Not make sense?  Not practical?  As a Sub Teacher, I had to continually ask myself  what the possible ramifications of my actions might be.  What I said to a student and when and where I said it.  I was once saved from a serious accusation by having more than one student at the scene.   Why? because BSA YPT made me think about not being ONLY one on one.  

Safe Swim Defense?   How does that not lend itself to good pool  management?   If you think about it,  the history that is learned HOPEFULLY becomes enshrined in better practice.  BSA YP when I joined as an adult was already being improved and had become a model for many other youth programs, church insurance programs and such.  Not practical?  Seat belts in cars were once thought to be "not practical". But they do save lives and so are now required.   Doesn't make sense?  The Titanic did not have enough life boats because "it didn't make sense". The Titanic was designed unsinkable and if there was a problem, the boats would be used to ferry folks to the (certainly)close by recue ships.  

Things are only "impractical" and "don't make sense"  to folks that never have any problems with the rest of the world.    When I was a Scout, I learned the Chest Pressure Arm Lift technique of Artificial Respiration.  Even then, the USArmy was experimenting with mouth to mouth CPR.  Since those days, I have learned no fewer than 4 distinct methods and  each has been an improvement on the previous.  The CPR method and rhythm I now know has only been needed once in 50 years. I was glad I knew it.  I used it OUTSIDE of BSA.    

David CO,  you are right to question the need for using YPT outside of BSA, but you might reconsider the comparison of life in BSA vs outside.    Which might be "safer" now, with our newer training requirements?  Which could benefit from the other?   

See you on the trail..... 

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9 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

It truly is a mess trying to actually abide by the rules. We have the issue with eagle projects now. A scout is working with his mentor or his parent and a group of scouts on some eagle work days and now that has to be 2 leaders present, when you only have a few leaders in your troop to begin with, it's friggin hard, leaders only have so much time and it seems like scouts just assumes that all you want to do is scouting stuff 24x7 365.

 

So lets ask another technical question. Going by the letter of the law, Can a leader drive to a campout with 4 scouts in the car.There's now only 1 leader present.

As noted above. yes you can, although BSA prefers otherwise.

 Scouting,  January 19, 2028:

Q: "My understanding is, as long as Two Deep is practiced for the overall campout or event, it is always OK for a single adult to be with Scouts as long as there is more than one boy present."

A:  "Not quite, we prefer to have a minimum of two adults as your previous paragraph described."

 

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2 hours ago, SSScout said:

True, no one HAS to follow BSA training guidelines outside of the world of BSA .

I think that is exactly what we are talking about.  Do scouts and scout leaders have to follow YP in those areas of our lives which many of us would normally consider outside of the world of scouting?  Some good examples were given.  Can scouts invite their friends out to a movie?  Can scouts invite their friends over to their house to play?

Yes.  As a teacher, I have run into some of the same protection issues at school.  Sometimes they make sense.  Sometimes they go too far.  At one Catholic school I worked at, the principal and pastor were insistent that male teachers not join the local YMCA.  Our students regularly used the YMCA, and the school didn't want the male teachers changing and showering with their male students.  It made no difference to them that the YMCA activities were outside of school.

One of my principals clearly stated that she preferred to have the teachers live in a different town.  She felt it was best to have the teachers avoid contact with their students outside of work.  She lived 40 minutes away from school.  Said she didn't want to bump into students and parents at the grocery store, and thought it would be best if teachers took the same attitude.  

Public schools don't have this problem.  The union would tear the administrators to pieces if they tried that sort of stuff on public school teachers.  The teachers are allowed to live a normal life outside of school.

If scouting rules interfere with your family's ability to have a normal life, it is time to get out of scouting.

 

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