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Chapter 11 announced

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15 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Southern Region Downsizes Staff.  Retirements of the Region Director and 4 of the 8 Area Directors were announced today.  The remaining 4 Area Directors will now serve 2 Areas each.

Do you know if this was local to the Southern Region or did similar changes happen in other regions?

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46 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Interesting

  • Land - $121 million (how much is there like 10,000 acres??) - $12,000 per acre?
  • Buildings - $136 million - Assuming a very generous $135 per SF for space - do we really have 1,000,000 SF of space there??
  • Leasehold Improvements - $108  million that seems like a lot for infrastructure
  • Equipment - $13  million that is equivalent to 130 of the most expensive 2020 Corvettes (C8)

Philmont must be undervalued

I wasn't involved directly with Scouting at the time they began the Summit project, but I recall reading articles on it and what a "world class facility" it would be.  I wish had those articles now, because at the time it sure sounded like it was majority through corporate/private donation that the place was being built.  How terribly wrong that assumption was...

Jambos are nice.  They are not worth this price tag.   

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On 2/18/2020 at 8:31 AM, ParkMan said:

It would have been preferable for federal law to provide another legal mechanism to better handle this case - perhaps a mechanism to establish legal funds to pay out in cases like this where the offense happened well before the time of the current leadership.  But no such mechanism exists like that and so here we are.

.... Not only before leadership.  Federal law should consider "donated" assets and "when" the donation occurred and if the assets are fully cashable without killing the purpose of BSA.  For example, a large part of Philmont was donated after most of the abuse.  Paying past abuse kills the good will of the separate person who donated the assets.  

I really question the value of penalizing a current non-profit for what effectively were society wide ills.  

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1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

.... Not only before leadership.  Federal law should consider "donated" assets and "when" the donation occurred and if the assets are fully cashable without killing the purpose of BSA.  For example, a large part of Philmont was donated after most of the abuse.  Paying past abuse kills the good will of the separate person who donated the assets.  

I really question the value of penalizing a current non-profit for what effectively were society wide ills.  

I fully agree.

I would propose that either the BSA or a friend of the BSA do:

  • Identify 3-5 people on the national board with the ability to talk with Members of Congress.  If that expertise does not exist on that national board, identify people of sufficient experience nationally with a Scouting background.
  • Have that team meet with all Senators and Representatives with a Scouting background - either as a participant or a parent.  Enlist champions within those ranks
  • Meet with all remaining Members of Congress.
  • Due to the fact that the BSA is a Congressionally chartered organization, propose federal legislation that would:
    • Place the BSA into federal receivership for a period of 3 years.  During that time, the government will have the ability to
      • scrutinize spending of the national organization and it's local councils.
      • review the governance structure of the BSA to ensure transparency and ensure the primary purpose of the charter is being fulfilled.
    • Create an Inspector General to oversee the BSA's youth protection programs for a period of 20 years.
    • Cease all lawsuits against the BSA and it's local councils for abuse that happened prior to 2000

 

 

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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I really question the value of penalizing a current non-profit for what effectively were society wide ills.  

Unfortunately, it is the only way to force change.  Many of the people who are suing BSA aren't doing it just for the money.  They are angry with the lack of transparency and positive change in BSA.  They don't see much improvement.  Frankly, neither do I.

I question the wisdom in our society of using the court system to solve our ills.  I would much rather they be solved by more democratic means.  This hasn't happened, so the courts have become the primary instrument of change.  

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Don't tell plaintiff's counsel that BSA is a congressionally mandated charter.  Talk about deep pockets; if the feds are paying, even I probably can remember some sexual abuse. Lemme work on it...

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20 hours ago, mds3d said:

I think there is a big question on if the BSA national organization was involved in any "intentional wrong-doing" or was simply not doing enough.  

Yes, but what is alleged in the complaints and what position would the excess liability carrier take?   At best, the defense will be offered under a "Reservation of Rights" if intentional wrongdoing is alleged.  Punitive damages will likely not be covered.

 

"Lewis v. Boys Scouts of America et al. [16] was a case filed in Multnomah County, Oregon, by Kerry Lewis, a former member of the BSA who alleged having been abused by former scout leader Timur Dykes in the 1980s.[17] In 1983, Timur Dykes had confessed to the local BSA co-ordinator that he had molested 17 Boy Scouts,[18] but was allowed to continue working with the Scouts where, attorneys argued, he subsequently abused Lewis.[7][19]

In 2010, the jury on the case held in favor of the plaintiff and ordered that the Scouts pay $18.5 million as punishment for their actions—the largest punitive damages awarded to a single plaintiff in a child abuse case in the US.[7]"

WIKI

 

"Insurers Balk

It’s also in court with its insurance companies, which argue that they shouldn’t have to pay claims related to abuse that the Scouts could have reasonably prevented. BSA and several councils sued the Hartford Accident and Indemnity Co. and First State Insurance Co. in Texas for $13.5 million in June, after the insurers argued that BSA’s own records showed the organization hadn’t done enough to warn or protect kids. These weren’t unrelated incidents, according to the insurers, but all the result of the organization’s failure to warn parents of the risk.

lg.php?bannerid=0&campaignid=0&zoneid=16In a different legal dispute, insurers are refusing to pay for sex-abuse settlements and legal defense fees, arguing that the events weren’t accidents, or even unforeseen."

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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I really question the value of penalizing a current non-profit for what effectively were society wide ills.  

True, but when the BSA tried to cover things up, can we blame that on society wide ills? If, instead, the BSA had brought it out and explained what it was doing to solve the problem they would have a lot more credibility now. The mindset should have always been that a proven abuse results in a ton of very visible repair going on: Helping the abused youth, prosecuting the abuser, and understanding how it happened to improve the unit, the council, and the BSA. Anyone hiding an event should have harsh consequences as well.

I just wish there were some concrete numbers put on when these abuses and coverups happened. My impression is it dropped in the 90s when better protections were put in. But how much? Honestly, they need to convince me as well. If there were still coverups going on after my son started in 2001 then I'll be angry. After going through the training I assumed the process of training and reacting to abuse was all cleaned up. Was it? If so, the idea of don't throw out the baby with the bath water holds. If not, I'm assuming there are going to be a lot of properties sold.

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Do you know if this was local to the Southern Region or did similar changes happen in other regions?

Answer:  I do not know if this is going one in other regions.  There is a big meeting in Dallas today during which a number of decisions and announcements will b e made.  The first hearing on the case takes place today as well.  So, we should learn of some additional developments on the national scene very soon.   

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3 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

For an organization whose motto is "Be Prepared",  I think many will say accept the consequences and fix your own problems.

You are right.  That will be the result.  It's just not fair.  

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2 hours ago, MattR said:

True, but when the BSA tried to cover things up, can we blame that on society wide ills? If, instead, the BSA had brought it out and explained what it was doing to solve the problem they would have a lot more credibility now. The mindset should have always been that a proven abuse results in a ton of very visible repair going on: Helping the abused youth, prosecuting the abuser, and understanding how it happened to improve the unit, the council, and the BSA. Anyone hiding an event should have harsh consequences as well.

I just wish there were some concrete numbers put on when these abuses and coverups happened. My impression is it dropped in the 90s when better protections were put in. But how much? Honestly, they need to convince me as well. If there were still coverups going on after my son started in 2001 then I'll be angry. After going through the training I assumed the process of training and reacting to abuse was all cleaned up. Was it? If so, the idea of don't throw out the baby with the bath water holds. If not, I'm assuming there are going to be a lot of properties sold.

I'd expect 95% was before 2000.  The abuse drop in 90s was more than about BSA.  Society as a whole finally realized the nature of abuse.  Before then, society as a whole did not handle it well.  If you reach back to the 1970s/1980s even, parents would not believe kids.  Teachers, police and other officials would often brush stuff under the rug.  If you reach back to the 1960s and earlier, that was absolutely true.  

Some see cover up.  Others see BSA as doing more than the rest of society did. 

IMHO ... in the era of mimeographs ... before the internet ... before automated background checks ... before society recognized the nature of abuse ... , BSA had a system to report up the chain and try to block volunteers that abused.  IMHO, BSA had a system in place before the rest of society.    

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5 hours ago, David CO said:

"Unfortunately, it is the only way to force change.  Many of the people who are suing BSA aren't doing it just for the money.  They are angry with the lack of transparency and positive change in BSA.  They don't see much improvement.  Frankly, neither do I."

Not sure what you might expect, especially in comparison to similar groups.  Not only did BSA do "something" far earlier than anyone, but they are still the template others look at to improve or set up their own programs of YP.  Just exactly do you think they should do?  Should they have dragged all the old files from an earlier era out on their own and tried to make up for changes in societal norms?  As the doctor of psychology that wrote the report shared earlier says; "there is no way to absolutely determine a predator".  So, what can the BSA be expected to do, beyond what they have done and are now doing?

 

 

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It seems to me that much of this problem, not only with the BSA, but the Churches and those youth entities that are waiting in the wings to have BSA and the Catholic Church drained before they are drawn in, is that we have the false idea that you can fix the errors of the past by dragging them into the present.  It is like the idea of preparations for Slavery.  How deep and how far back do you go to find the victims, and how do you distinquish who gets the reparation today?  

Something that is not too often noted in the Slavery issue is that many of the ones doing the selling were tribal entities in Africa.  So, are they somehow going to be held accountable for their ways of life three centuries ago?  How do you do it?

Some on here appear to think that there is an actual perfect response or remedy.  But there is none.  We need to change the way we do things and try to be sure that the safety precautions are in play at all times.  No amount of money and ruination of the BSA or other groups will actually fix the past.

 

 

 

Edited by skeptic
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