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Chapter 11 announced

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Posted (edited)

It "means" that when there is a reversion on cessation of a stated required use, the property immediately belongs to the grantor or the grantors estate, not the bankrupt grantee, and the property is not subject to being used to satisfy creditors of the bankrupt grantee   This outcome is quite predictable on general property law principles.

Edited by TAHAWK
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Maybe it's been discussed before, but how does the Chapter 11 affect local council properties, since Councils are considered independent corporations?  

Our main camp is on the banks of the James River in Virginia and is a former plantation, the deed of which can be traced back to Capt John Smith.  The state archeologists are excavating a home site on the river bank dating back to the 1600s when some settlers at Jamestown expanded across the river.  The common thinking is that the owners deeded the 800+ acre plot to the Council in 1958, with a similar provision that should it not be used for Scouting, it would revert back to the owner, but I cannot confirm that.  

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I honestly do not know how it will affect councils and their properties. I do know that the lead attorney has stated on several occasions that he wants the complete dissolution of the BSA. He has also threatened to launch a wave of lawsuits against individual councils where he can, and National has asked  the councils to become part of the lawsuit so that the matter is settled once and for all.

Always in motion, the future is.

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1 hour ago, scoutldr said:

Maybe it's been discussed before, but how does the Chapter 11 affect local council properties, since Councils are considered independent corporations?  

Our main camp is on the banks of the James River in Virginia and is a former plantation, the deed of which can be traced back to Capt John Smith.  The state archeologists are excavating a home site on the river bank dating back to the 1600s when some settlers at Jamestown expanded across the river.  The common thinking is that the owners deeded the 800+ acre plot to the Council in 1958, with a similar provision that should it not be used for Scouting, it would revert back to the owner, but I cannot confirm that.  

That's the multi-million dollar question.  The plaintiff's position is that councils are not separate entities and so all properties and funds, national and local council, are fair game to fund compensation of victims.  Obviously BSA's position is that councils are wholly separate.  Both sides can make solid legal arguments for their positions and it is unclear what the combination of facts and law would lead to if it really does wend it's way all the way through the court system --- a process that would take years.

What's driving most of this right now is that some states have expanded their statutes of limitation to include many old cases.  The properties of councils in those states are definitely in jeopardy because any lawsuits would definitely include those councils as joint defendants with BSA national.  Councils in other states only face losses if a court decides national and council are one and the same.

Best bet seems to be that there will be one giant settlement funded jointly by all the councils and BSA.  Each Council will pony up some monies, many of them will need to pony up significant money based on their own individual exposure, and that along with money from BSA national.  That would settle all claims and save the years and years of litigation, the outcome of which no one can be sure of.

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Posted (edited)

As I understand , National has to seek permission from the Bankruptcy Court  for new financial transactions - hiring, buying, selling outside of what was initially court allowed, but  "independent" councils do not. This might soon change  as on July 8 when participating councils will provide a list of  their assets to the court.  Consider the sudden rush to sell Camp Pioneer  in Caddo Area  Council (AR) by June 30..  Maybe a  coincidence?

The really “hard decision” would be to take a step back and honor their fiduciary responsibility to secure the best deal for the Council. It does not take a real estate professional to recognize that an unsolicited cash offer, with a short deadline, for an unlisted property with no professional appraisal is seldom the best offer or even a fair offer. The Executive Board should know that, and they should also know that anyone who is truly interested in purchasing the property will still be interested beyond June 30.

https://txktoday.com/news/letter-to-the-editor-sale-of-camp-pioneer-boy-scout-camp-raises-concerns/

Edited by RememberSchiff

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BSA (the Debtors) has asked Court permission to sever certain Oracle Cloud Services agreements - the "HCM Services" and the "Volunteer Learning Management Services" as

11. In connection with their reorganization proceedings, the Debtors are continuing a strategic review of their contractual obligations. The Debtors have been unable to successfully implement the HCM Services, and they have determined that (a) an alternate provider is available to provide substantially similar services at a lower cost and (b) for certain of the HCM Services, their existing technology is sufficient for their current organizational needs.

12. With respect to the Volunteer Learning Management Services, the Debtors have concluded that substantially similar services are available at a lower cost from an alternate provider.

13. As such, the Volunteer Learning Management Services do not align with the Debtors’ ongoing strategic plans and will provide no significant value to the Debtors’ estates going forward. Accordingly, the Debtors have determined, in the exercise of their reasonable business judgment, that it is in the best interests of the Debtors, their estates, and creditors to reject the Rejected Contracts.  (page 4)

:blink:

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/828408_906.pdf

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 "Volunteer Learning Management Services ":rolleyes:

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2020 at 9:33 AM, scoutldr said:

Maybe it's been discussed before, but how does the Chapter 11 affect local council properties, since Councils are considered independent corporations?  

Our main camp is on the banks of the James River in Virginia and is a former plantation, the deed of which can be traced back to Capt John Smith.  The state archeologists are excavating a home site on the river bank dating back to the 1600s when some settlers at Jamestown expanded across the river.  The common thinking is that the owners deeded the 800+ acre plot to the Council in 1958, with a similar provision that should it not be used for Scouting, it would revert back to the owner, but I cannot confirm that.  

Heart of Virginia?

There are three options AT THIS MOMENT (things can change):

1) The Council joins in with the National bankruptcy plan and pays some amount TBD. Any claims against the Council for past actions are considered closed. That TBD amount is unknown at this point, but councils who are interested in this deal have until a date in the near future to take the first step (turn over all financial records) to the bankruptcy court.

2) The Council decides to go it alone, the plaintiffs finish their suit against National and the Councils that agreed to join in the settlement, and plaintiffs immediately file suit against the Council. They may try to force sale camps to pay damages.

3) The Council decides to go it alone, the plaintiffs finish their suit against National and the Councils that agreed to join in the settlement, and plaintiffs decide suing that particular individual Council isn't worth it.

Edited by CynicalScouter

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49 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

BSA (the Debtors) has asked Court permission to sever certain Oracle Cloud Services agreements - the "HCM Services" and the "Volunteer Learning Management Services"

 

Does this mean Scouting U is getting nuked?

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19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Does this mean Scouting U is getting nuked?

(Disclaimer: my employer is a competitor to, partner of, and customer of Oracle, and I personally have some expired Oracle certifications; however, my statements below represent my own opinion, not that of my employer.)

I don't think so. Apparently BSA has several contracts with Oracle, and they're only trying to terminate some of them. The motion says,

"With respect to the Volunteer Learning Management Services, the Debtors have concluded that substantially similar services are available at a lower cost from an alternate provider."

So I would guess, and I think they want the judge to believe, that they want to continue online "Scouting U" in some form. Either they have a paid-up license for the software and want to purchase cloud hosting for it cheaper elsewhere, or the content is sufficiently portable that they can host it in another vendor's software on cheaper hosting. 

Given my experience with "migrations" and "upgrades" and "refreshes" and "consolidations", both as an IT professional and as an end-user, I'm a little worried that the "substantially similar ... at lower cost" might not be accurate.  It might be prudent to print out hard copies of course completions in My Scouting, and retain other written records, and printed training materials (even if currently officially "obsolete"). Just to "Be Prepared", of course.

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Just now, DavidLeeLambert said:

(Disclaimer: my employer is a competitor to, partner of, and customer of Oracle, and I personally have some expired Oracle certifications; however, my statements below represent my own opinion, not that of my employer.)

Somewhere, you just made your general counsel happy. Great disclaimer work! 😀

And thanks of the rest of the info; this makes sense. I just literally did not know. I did notice that a lot of my former "taleo" no longer appear (e.g. bsalearn.learn.taleo.net)

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On 6/24/2020 at 8:33 AM, scoutldr said:

Our main camp is on the banks of the James River in Virginia and is a former plantation, the deed of which can be traced back to Capt John Smith.  The state archeologists are excavating a home site on the river bank dating back to the 1600s when some settlers at Jamestown expanded across the river.  The common thinking is that the owners deeded the 800+ acre plot to the Council in 1958, with a similar provision that should it not be used for Scouting, it would revert back to the owner, but I cannot confirm that.  

So your main camp was a Virginia slave plantation, and your council has been asserting its white privilege to use it as a Boy Scout camp.  I wouldn't sweat the bankruptcy.  BLM is going to claim the camp for reparations anyway.

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Posted (edited)

One of the positions by National BSA is that National and the Councils are in fact separate.  Possibly yes legally as different entities, but are they really?

Then BSA National makes the statement on racism and Black Lives Matter (BSA capitalization), and in our Council the DE's read the statement word for word at roundtables and basically advised this was to be taken as gospel, no questions, we all need to get in lockstep and accept.  No statement or interpretation from the local council.

From a purely legal perspective how does the BSA (National and Council) resolve or justify the "separation" when clearly National makes policy and Councils implement.  Seems like actions may speak louder than words

Edited by Jameson76

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

From a purely legal perspective how does the BSA (National and Council) resolve or justify the "separation" when clearly National makes policy and Councils implement.  Seems like actions may speak louder than words

BSA is relying on the good will and reputation that scouting had developed in the previous century to get the bankruptcy court to overlook the obvious contradictions in its position.  I don't know how this will work (from a purely legal perspective).  I do know that scouts and scouters see the contradiction, and it is not helping BSA to develop good will and reputation in this century.

Edited by David CO
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