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3 hours ago, scoutldr said:

Also explains why the first class of female Eagles were in a sprint to the finish line.  May not be another class.

I suspect you are right for a subset, though certainly not all of them — for the same reasons others have already talked about in this thread: the narrative at the District or Council level that this was only about National, that local scouting wouldn’t be affected, etc.  That was certainly what we heard at the FOS presentation right after the bankruptcy was filed.  Of people I spoke with that had other daughters in Scouting, this wasn’t a topic that came up frequently or where I heard much concern when it did, I think taking what we were being told pretty much at face value.

While I didn’t really push my daughter much (she was pretty advancement driven from the beginning), the discussions on this forum and the statements from the court discussions about BSA running out of money by summer, led me to start doing some of the sort of contingency planning others have described doing for their Life Scouts now and to do some calendar calculations for when she might be able to finish up.  Project paperwork should be signed off this coming week, and another few weeks of calendar time and she should make it.  But I don’t think that sort of risk assessment was that common, at least in the small slice of Scouting I’ve had visibility into.

If this does go as many here (including me) fear it might, I really feel for the scouts that came in with the expectation of a journey more like the ideal folks here have described... more about adventure, gradually accumulating advancement to Eagle as a pinnacle after a few years in Scouting.  Particularly for the young women that saw the chance to join Scouts BSA as a great door to new opportunity opening, only to watch the walls around that door cave in soon after.  

Edited by BAJ
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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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2 hours ago, MattR said:

I wouldn't start pushing scouts to get eagle or selling your gear. Besides, I think the eagle brand is taking a huge hit - what's it going to be worth if you're afraid to bring it up?

The reason why I might push more now is really for the scouts who are very close and can “see the finish line” for something that they have been working on for years ... but haven’t gotten that one last merit badge or got their post-project report written and signed ... because, really, what person of any age is really excited by post project paperwork?  

If things fall apart and do so rapidly, that Scout having to watch the trail getting dismantled around them and losing their opportunity to get to the end would add an additional heartbreak for them on top of the heartbreak of this situation for everyone involved.  If some additional reminders, some “more insistent” mentoring can prevent that, it would seem a worthwhile investment to make.

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9 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Here's the other aspect. Since 1990, BSA has touted YPT as the be all and end all. Since 1990, there has been over 11,000 victims.

That's a mess. There's BSA's liability right there.

Associated Press in 2017 found that in the previous four years, there were 17,000 sports victims ... without lawyers soliciting on TV ... often called inappropriate contact ... minimized by coaches ... mandatory reporting often not followed.  Four years of sports with almost twice as many vs 30 years with BSA.  So then church youth programs?  School?  Music and theater programs?  

Obviously BSA is not perfect.  I'm not arguing that.  I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone. 

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9 hours ago, yknot said:

... But the difference between scouting and youth organizations like sports is that BSA marketed its entire existence as being set on a higher moral plane. ...

Every coach and sporting program markets based on values, character development, physical fitness, etc.  We have surrendered a bit too much to BSA's marketing materials if we really think the purpose of scouting is that much different than sports.  Every coach and sporting program worth their salt finds ways to work values and character development into their teaching. 

BSA Aims:  

  • Character development
  • Leadership development
  • Citizenship training
  • Physical fitness

Football per USA Football ... https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/523/3-reasons-why-your-child-should-play-youth-football

  • Love of game
  • Physical fitness .,. BSA aim
  • Teamwork ... BSA aim... Targeted exercise in citizenship
  • Discipline ... BSA aim... aka character development

Team sports:  https://cyfastorms.org/10-reasons-why-kids-should-play-team-sports/

  • Teamwork ... BSA aim.. Targeted exercise in citizenship
  • Physical fitness  ... BSA aim
  • Dealing with adversity ... aka character development
  • Commitment ... aka character development
  • Better grades ... aka character development

Marine corp view of sports: https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/5-reasons-why-your-child-should-be-playing-sports/

  • Develops teamwork and leadership skills   ... BSA aim
  • Healthy life style  ... BSA aim

 

 

Edited by fred8033
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8 hours ago, ThenNow said:

This was raised above, but I don't know how to show the link to the poster, MYCVAStory.

Unless the YPT absolutely locked in during the last decade plus, you can't take that 11,000 as gospel. All data indicates child sexual abuse by men against boys is reported at least 10 years later than for girls abused by men. For most men, it's well into their 30's. For me, I was 41.

Exhibit 1 at Page 3 of the Claims Data shows the dramatic declination of claims (as filed in this case only) in recent years. If it the YTP began working like a finely oiled machine or if the reports have not yet surfaced is the question. Only time will tell and that's why there is a future claimants committee, as I understand it.

Again, I know you went thru hell.  My apologies. 

I believe the drop is real and started far in advance of the last ten years of law suits. 

Alot has changed since 2000. 

  • Scout leaders are legally required mandatory reporters
  • Mandatory troop youth viewing of YP videos
  • Complete revamp of training, who needs to be trained, etc
  • Continued improvement and evolution of YP requirements and training
  • Key one --> Every scout handbook for as long as my scouts have been members (I believe) starts a with phamplet for parents to read on YP.  ... Even now part of rank requirements to be handled.  

"I BELIEVE" there is a big difference between 1980s and now that encourages scouts and leaders to speak up.  I believe because of how it was handled in the 1980s and even early 1990s that many youth would not speak up right away.  I'm betting now it is very different.  Some will behave the same.  But speaking up about being a victim does not contain the same stigma it had back 30 years ago.   Still some stigma, but not like in the 1980s and earlier. 

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8 hours ago, David CO said:

No matter what happens, I don't think WOSM is going to let go of the American market.

I agree.  My main reason to get my sons in scouting was to give them skills and interests that I hope serve them their whole lives.  Going out into nature.  Not being scared of new adventures.  etc, etc, etc.

There will ALWAYS be a demand for this.  It might not be titled BSA, but some group will offer it. 

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1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

Wait, it had the same Scoutmaster for 67 years? Was it like, 87?

I've seen one like that.  Not sure if it was as long, but his kids then helped as ASMs.

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27 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Every coach and sporting program markets based on values, character development, physical fitness, etc.  We have surrendered a bit too much to BSA's marketing materials if we really think the purpose of scouting is that much different than sports.  Every coach and sporting program worth their salt finds ways to work values and character development into their teaching. 

BSA Aims:  

  • Character development
  • Leadership development
  • Citizenship training
  • Physical fitness

Football per USA Football ... https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/523/3-reasons-why-your-child-should-play-youth-football

  • Love of game
  • Physical fitness .,. BSA aim
  • Teamwork ... BSA aim... Targeted exercise in citizenship
  • Discipline ... BSA aim... aka character development

Team sports:  https://cyfastorms.org/10-reasons-why-kids-should-play-team-sports/

  • Teamwork ... BSA aim.. Targeted exercise in citizenship
  • Physical fitness  ... BSA aim
  • Dealing with adversity ... aka character development
  • Commitment ... aka character development
  • Better grades ... aka character development

Marine corp view of sports: https://usmc-mccs.org/articles/5-reasons-why-your-child-should-be-playing-sports/

  • Develops teamwork and leadership skills   ... BSA aim
  • Healthy life style  ... BSA aim

 

 

I don't totally disagree with you. Frankly, sports were where my sons found real character development and leadership training. Far more so than in scouts ironically and sadly. However, sports does not market itself as a morals based, character building enterprise. Scouts does. It doesn't even really market itself much as an outdoors pursuit anymore. Recruitment and promotional materials for football, baseball, soccer, etc., mention good sportsmanship, leadership, etc., but everyone knows the reason they are on the field is to play the game. Scout recruitment materials cite the value of attaining Eagle. Citizenship. Do a Good Turn Daily. The Scout Oath. Honor. Duty. Trustworthy... Everyone knows the reason you are in scouts is because you believe in those things that the organization supposedly stands for. That's why these abuse cases are so especially egregious. 

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7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Obviously BSA is not perfect.  I'm not arguing that.  I'm arguing it's blind to think BSA sits alone. 

True, indeed. As has been said, however, BSA has critical distinctions from other youth organizations. Two of note:

1) BSA fundamentally and morally elevated itself above most other youth programs and activities, save maybe religious. Personally, having been intimately involved in just about all youth activities I could get myself into (on the cheap), BSA's iconic image of wholesomeness, virtue, good fun and hard work stood it above the (Catholic) Church for a working class kid like me. I don't pretend to speak for anyone else. The Church was somewhat removed in space and time; impractical, mystical and often irrelevant between Sacraments. Scouting brought the sanctity of the good, right, honest and true into my daily world of craft, sport, training, outdoorsmanship, leadership and all the rest. Think, the Rockwell Collection; and

2) Scouting provides a complete range of opportunities and settings for access to children by ill-intentioned adults that others don't, when taken separately. If you combine all other youth activities, you get the what BSA has in one program. We've talked about this many times, but having done, band, sports, choir, theater, speaking clubs, civic clubs, Boys State, forensics, academic clubs, CCD, student government, Scouts, youth group/retreats, blah, blah, blah, Scouting was far and away the most vulnerable to exploitation. In many cases, exponentially. It just doesn't work to compare context with most other youth organizations. I didn't do travel sports, because it wasn't much of a thing back when (at least where I grew up).

Edited by ThenNow
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7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Again, I know you went thru hell.  My apologies. 

I believe the drop is real and started far in advance of the last ten years of law suits. 

Great. Thanks.

You're not attacking me by responding with your opinion and good, additional data. I was merely pointing out a factor that must be applied if we are to properly interpret the data. Some of what I take as my part here is to do that from a survivor perspective who knows as well as anyone how the creeps seep through. 

On its face, the data looks like YPT is a slam dunk.  For some, that's it. Case closed - it worked, even if there are 11,000 claims. But, considering all factors that may contribute to the drop is important to understand what the numbers are actually "saying." It seems like I've been hearing that the BSA and Scouters can be too narrow in view and perspective, and insular and self-protective institutionally. I'm trying to encourage moving away from that, since it seems to be getting you and Scouting into trouble. I may be wrong. 

Edited by ThenNow
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Filed 3.12.21

RE: ARROW WV, INC, JP MORGAN CHASE, SUMMIT BECHTEL

JOINT MOTION OF THE OFFICIAL TORT CLAIMANTS’ COMMITTEE AND FUTURE CLAIMANTS’ REPRESENTATIVE FOR ENTRY OF AN ORDER GRANTING STANDING AND AUTHORIZING THE PROSECUTION OF CERTAIN CHALLENGE CLAIMS ON BEHALF OF THE BANKRUPTCY ESTATES

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/878880_2364 a.pdf

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16 hours ago, skeptic said:

Are all the abuse claims "sexual", or do they include in theory psychological or physical abuse, other than sexual?

The claim form says:
 

Quote

 

"For the purposes of this Sexual Abuse Survivor Proof of Claim, sexual abuse means, with respect to a child under the age of eighteen (18) at the time of the sexual abuse, sexual conduct or misconduct, sexual abuse or molestation, sexual exploitation, sexual touching, sexualized interaction, sexual comments about a person’s body, or other verbal or non-verbal behaviors that facilitated, contributed to, or led up to abuse, regardless of whether or not such behavior was itself sexual or against the law, and regardless of whether the child thought the behavior was sexual abuse at the time.

Sexual abuse includes behavior between a child and an adult and between a child and another child, in each instance without regard to whether such activity involved explicit force, whether such activity involved genital or other physical contact, and whether the child associated the abuse with any physical, psychological, or emotional harm. It involves behaviors including penetration or fondling of the child’s body, other body-on-body contact, or non-contact, behaviors such as observing or making images of a child’s naked body, showing or making pornography, or having children behave in sexual behavior as a group.

If you have a claim arising from sexual abuse and you were at least eighteen (18) years of age at the time the sexual abuse began or if you have a claim arising from other types of abuse, including non-sexual physical abuse, non-sexual emotional abuse, bullying or hazing, you should consult [...]"

 

So if an adult "yells at a youth in frustration", I don't think it would count I think it might if that yelling included inappropriate sexual references.

But the claims have not been vetted at this point, so there could potentially be some that don't actually allege anything that matches the definition on the claim form.

If you're looking for for scenarios that might match the definition on the claim form but might result in a low-dollar judgement if they actually went before a jury, consider this one:

  • The Scouts are having a sleep-over at someone's home, or are in a hotel room together on the road to a high-adventure trip. While the adults are (or the adult is, pre-YPT) sleeping, one of them unveils an R-rated movie and they watch it together.

My kids' prior school district was looking for a new superintendent recently, and one of the candidates was turned down because of a couple of alleged incidents like that in his background. One was basically those facts, except that the boys were a sports team and he was their coach.

Edited by DavidLeeLambert
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I'm trying my best to understand the new legal document posted by ThenNow.

It sounds like the lawyers are arguing that BSA and Arrow aren't really distinct from each other given the terms of the debts between them, so the Summit property (and related assets of Arrow) should be considered assets of the BSA for purposes of the settlement.

I didn't know Summit was only 10 years old. I remember hearing about Northern Tier, Philmont, and Florida Sea Base from when I was a kid, but I had never heard of Summit until I started looking into volunteering as an adult. Guess that's why.

 

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13 minutes ago, MisterH said:

It sounds like the lawyers are arguing that BSA and Arrow aren't really distinct from each other given the terms of the debts between them, so the Summit property (and related assets of Arrow) should be considered assets of the BSA for purposes of the settlement.

Yes. You nailed it.

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29 minutes ago, MisterH said:

It sounds like the lawyers are arguing that BSA and Arrow aren't really distinct from each other given the terms of the debts between them, so the Summit property (and related assets of Arrow) should be considered assets of the BSA for purposes of the settlement.

That's EXACTLY what they are arguing. It is a two part accusation.

First, Arrow WV is a shell game. BSA claims they don't own or control it, they merely rent it. This article reviews some of the aspects here https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/summit-bechtel-state-chartered-nonprofit-play-roles-in-boy-scouts-bankruptcy-case/article_7e36f599-ac41-51dc-9f36-badfbe4cc094.html

BUT the Arrow WV board reads like a whose-who of BSA National leadership. BSA money went to create it. It is NOT independent. It's BSA's property.

Quote

Arrow WV Inc., in fact, owns the Summit Bechtel Reserve and leases it to the Boy Scouts, according to bankruptcy filings. It was incorporated in Fayette County in June 2009, according to the West Virginia Secretary of State’s office. Texas equity investor Jack D. Furst, who led the Boy Scouts task force chosen to identify a permanent National Jamboree site, is listed as president; current Scouts President and CEO Roger Mosby, vice president; and Charleston attorney and current Scouts general counsel Steve McGowan, secretary.

This culminates in this paragraph of the document ThenNow posted

Quote

To the extent Arrow is an affiliate of BSA, the ostensible debt due under the Intercompany Note should be recharacterized as a contribution of capital by BSA to Arrow and the Intercompany Deed of Trust would, accordingly, cease to secure an enforceable debt. Alternatively, to the extent Arrow is not an affiliate of BSA, the transfers made by BSA to Arrow pursuant to the Intercompany Note should be avoided as fraudulent transfers and BSA should recover the value of such transfers, or the Summit Property, for the benefit of its estate.

Which ROUGHLY translates as:

1) IF as we (TCC) suspect Arrow WV is really just BSA in a different set of clothes ("affiliate of BSA") then BSA really controls Arrow WV and the money BSA sent to Arrow WV should be viewed as BSA's money that we (TCC) can go collect/carve out of Arrow WV's hide.

2) IF Arrow WV really, really is not "an affiliate of BSA", we (TCC) are still calling shenanigans because then it was a fraudulent transfer by BSA to an external entity for fraudulent purposes (most recently playing hide-the-asset-from-creditors).

Second, the other aspect is that BSA claims even if they WANTED to sell Summit they can't because it was already promised to JPMorgan Chase as a loan or other credit agreements and oh shucks isn't that too bad.

The TCC is calling BS and claiming BSA purposefully and fraudulently put Summit under JPMorgan Chase in order to dodge potential sale as part of the bankruptcy.

Quote

declaratory judgment that certain property of the Debtors is not subject to the liens or security interests granted to JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., in its capacity as lender, collateral agent, and bondholder (“JPM” or the “Prepetition Lender”);

So, TCC would like permission to go sue JPMorganChase (and BSA and Arrow WV, but mostly JPMorgan Chase) in order to have JPMorgan Chase's claim on Arrow WV voided. If TCC can do that AND THEN show that Arrow WV is really just BSA in different clothing, then Summit can be liquidated/sold NOW as part of the bankruptcy and the money turned over to the abuse victims (OR the note and deed to Arrow WV get turned over and the Settlement Fund sells it later Either/or).

Why permission? Generally during a bankruptcy ALL lawsuits involving the debtor and debtor assets are stayed. If you'd still like to sue the stuffing out of the debtor (or the bank they are playing hide-the-asset games with) you need the bankruptcy judge's OK.

Edited by CynicalScouter
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