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Chapter 11 announced

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9 hours ago, MattR said:

True, but when the BSA tried to cover things up, can we blame that on society wide ills? If, instead, the BSA had brought it out and explained what it was doing to solve the problem they would have a lot more credibility now. The mindset should have always been that a proven abuse results in a ton of very visible repair going on: Helping the abused youth, prosecuting the abuser, and understanding how it happened to improve the unit, the council, and the BSA. Anyone hiding an event should have harsh consequences as well.

Right.  But, from a public policy perspective, do we as a country, really want to dismantle Congressionally chartered non-profit organizations where the entire staff and leadership is different today than when the offenses happened? 

We're not talking firing the Executive Board and replacing the professionals.   Those pursuing these cases are talking about ending the BSA.  We all think our packs and troops are safe and our councils will be fine.  I don't buy it.  I expect that those pursuing these cases will find a way to argue that all councils are really part of the same master organization.  This will result in all kinds of catastrophic impacts on the local councils.

This case is very different from the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church is a sovereign institution based in Rome.  The BSA is a non-profit organization based in Dallas.

This would be more like dismantling the US Olympic Committee and decideding the United States should not particpate in Olympics anymore because of the abuse of athletes in the 60's to 90's.  In the case of the USOC, we'd fire the entire board and employees, replace them with a new administration, and prepare for the next Olympics.  In the case of Scouting, we're prepared to end the BSA.

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The bankruptcy case began Wednesday with a court hearing in Wilmington, Delaware, where attorneys for victims made clear they will also go after campsites and other properties owned by the Boy Scouts’ 261 local councils, and will also demand access to internal files containing abusers’ names.

U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Laurie Selber Silverstein did not immediately rule on access to the files or how the property of the local councils will be treated.

Another battle is taking shape over what deadline the court will set for victims to file claims for compensation. Victims’ attorneys chafed at the notion of an 80-day deadline, saying men who have suffered need more time.

More at source:

https://www.austindailyherald.com/2020/02/plaintiffs-attorneys-take-aim-at-boy-scouts-dark-history/

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7 hours ago, ParkMan said:

 

We're not talking firing the Executive Board and replacing the professionals.   

 

That's because we can't.  If we had the power to do that, it would have been done years ago, and BSA would not be in the mess it is in today.  The executive board and the employees are going to try to hang on right to the end.  They won't give up their control of BSA until the lights go out.

 

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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

In the case of Scouting, the BSA may dissolve in this bankruptcy, if so, it will be replaced and Scouting will move on.  IMHO, Scouting is an idea, a philosophy of life, not an organization. 

Another $0.02,

I mentioned, a few years ago, that I have a friend who owns a franchise restaurant.  The franchise went bankrupt, but the existing stores are allowed to continue using the name and logo.  It was the best thing that could have happened to him.  He still has the restaurant, but he doesn't have to pay the franchise fees anymore.  Business has never been better.

Imagine if BSA and its councils all disappeared, and the existing Chartered Organizations are allowed to continue with their Boy Scout units without the interference and fees from BSA.  It would be the best outcome that could possibly happen for my unit.  :)

 

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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

In the case of Scouting, the BSA may dissolve in this bankruptcy, if so, it will be replaced and Scouting will move on.  IMHO, Scouting is an idea, a philosophy of life, not an organization. 

Another $0.02,

 

38 minutes ago, David CO said:

I mentioned, a few years ago, that I have a friend who owns a franchise restaurant.  The franchise went bankrupt, but the existing stores are allowed to continue using the name and logo.  It was the best thing that could have happened to him.  He still has the restaurant, but he doesn't have to pay the franchise fees anymore.  Business has never been better.

Imagine if BSA and its councils all disappeared, and the existing Chartered Organizations are allowed to continue with their Boy Scout units without the interference and fees from BSA.  It would be the best outcome that could possibly happen for my unit.  :)

 

Let's not conflate our personal frustrations with the organization that is the BSA with the public policy issue here.  The United States Congress chartered the BSA as the organization tasked with bringing Scouting to boys in this country.

If the BSA dissolves, something will take it's place - but it will be with vastly diminished membership and resources.  15%-20% of kids at best in the new organization.  Summer camps gone.  High adventure bases gone.  Historical good will gone.  We'll be set back 80 years in terms of infrastructure for the program.   Today buying large camp properties is prohibitively expensive.  With no historical connection with the program how many large donors do you expect will fund those camps?  Today there are vastly more youth programs to compete with.  Getting volunteers is vastly harder.  It would be like the Baden Powell Scout Association trying to start up a major Scouting program today.

From a public policy perspective, this is a poor choice for the youth of America.  It would be far better for Congress to assert it's ownership here and clean house.

Edited by ParkMan
expanded the thought
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If the local councils get pulled into the Chapter 11 some such as my local council might be able to survive.   The reason I say this is that my local council only owns the local council office building.  The two camp properties that the council uses are not owned by the council.  The main camp is leased from the Army Corp of Engineers and the other older camp property is in a trust that cannot be sold and would revert to the local community only if the scouts abandoned the property. 

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12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Those pursuing these cases are talking about ending the BSA

I and others on this board have pointed out many times that this is the goal of the forces arrayed against the BSA.

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4 hours ago, ParkMan said:

It would be far better for Congress to assert it's ownership here and clean house.

First of all, Congress doesn't own scouting.  It has no ownership rights to assert.  

If BSA did somehow become nationalized, it wouldn't be the congress who would run it.  It would be the executive branch.  President Trump would probably get the authority to appoint the new executive board.  So be careful what you wish for.  Unless you want to go back to a more conservative Boy Scouts, and Make Boy Scouts Great Again, you might want to reconsider this position.

Personally, I would love to have a retro version of Boy Scouts.  Roll back all of the new liberal social changes.  But I think it would be best to do it from within.  All we need is a fair vote, and I think it could happen.

Edited by David CO
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23 hours ago, MattR said:

True, but when the BSA tried to cover things up, can we blame that on society wide ills? If, instead, the BSA had brought it out and explained what it was doing to solve the problem they would have a lot more credibility now. The mindset should have always been that a proven abuse results in a ton of very visible repair going on: Helping the abused youth, prosecuting the abuser, and understanding how it happened to improve the unit, the council, and the BSA. Anyone hiding an event should have harsh consequences as well.

 

Well, I'd have to argue that there wasn't much of any "covering things up" in the vast majority of cases; they just weren't advertised.  And a big part of that was that the thinking back before the 80's was very different about "the best interests of the child".  The general belief was that the social stigma that would come from a public accusation and arrest and trial would cause more harm to the victim than just "moving on".  I mean, let's keep in mind that any of these instances that went unreported to the police could ONLY have gone unreported with the agreement of the child's parents.

We understand better now that "moving on" just doesn't happen unless the trauma is dealt with directly, so the current viewpoint is different.  But back then,  when a successful prosecution would be unlikely without direct witness testimony or a confession and all an abuser would need to do is change states to avoid scrutiny (no nationwide databases), why would you want to subject your child to police interviews, court testimony, press attention and all of that?

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7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

In the case of Scouting, the BSA may dissolve in this bankruptcy, if so, it will be replaced and Scouting will move on.  IMHO, Scouting is an idea, a philosophy of life, not an organization. 

Another $0.02,

I'm with you.  If the trademarks and copyrights get frozen, just rename things in the "new BSA"- Eagle Scout would be say "Patriot Scout".  

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2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

I'm with you.  If the trademarks and copyrights get frozen, just rename things in the "new BSA"- Eagle Scout would be say "Patriot Scout".  

Patriot Scout?  There is something about "Eagle Scout" that has gravitas.  Continuity.  History.  Legacy.  Association.  It's like saying RC Cola is the same as Coke.  Personally, I like the taste of RC Cola, but it's not Coke.  

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7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

In the case of Scouting, the BSA may dissolve in this bankruptcy, if so, it will be replaced and Scouting will move on.  IMHO, Scouting is an idea, a philosophy of life, not an organization. 

Another $0.02,

Scouting already works in the US without the BSA. It's the Baden-Powell Service Association. All volunteer-run, no "National", other than a national Quartermaster for manufacturing and distributing badges and books, no Council, no District, just the local units and a handful of folks who oversea things regionally. Who are also volunteers. The units have to do a lot more on their own without the National resources, but they do it and they deliver a scouting program to their youth.

Scouting exists around the world mostly outside of the confines of the BSA. It certainly could (and does) continue to exist here in the US without the BSA, as long as adults are willing to take on the added burden of being a mostly locally-run organization.

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Has the WOSM made any public statement about the BSA bankruptcy?  

Could the WOSM pull BSA's charter and start a new Boy Scout organization?

Edited by David CO

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6 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Scouting already works in the US without the BSA. It's the Baden-Powell Service Association. All volunteer-run, no "National", other than a national Quartermaster for manufacturing and distributing badges and books, no Council, no District, just the local units and a handful of folks who oversea things regionally. Who are also volunteers. The units have to do a lot more on their own without the National resources, but they do it and they deliver a scouting program to their youth.

Scouting exists around the world mostly outside of the confines of the BSA. It certainly could (and does) continue to exist here in the US without the BSA, as long as adults are willing to take on the added burden of being a mostly locally-run organization.

BPSA It was started in the US in 2006 and in 2016 had 1,600 members.

This is exactly my point.

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