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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Q: Are there any LCs that have zero claims? 

It really doesn't look like it.

Councils listed in Summary of Sexual Abuse Claims in Chapter 11 Cases of Boy Scouts of America

  1. ABRAHAM LINCOLN

  2. ALABAMA‐FLORIDA

  3. ALAMO AREA

  4. ALLEGHENY HIGHLANDS

  5. ALOHA

  6. ANDREW JACKSON

  7. ANTHONY WAYNE AREA

  8. ARBUCKLE AREA

  9. ATLANTA AREA

  10. BADEN POWELL

  11. BALTIMORE AREA

  12. BAY AREA

  13. BAY‐LAKES

  14. BLACK HILLS AREA

  15. BLACK SWAMP AREA

  16. BLACK WARRIOR

  17. BLACKHAWK

  18. BLACKHAWK AREA

  19. BLUE GRASS

  20. BLUE MOUNTAIN

  21. BLUE RIDGE

  22. BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINS

  23. BUCKEYE

  24. BUCKSKIN

  25. BUCKTAIL

  26. BUFFALO TRACE

  27. BUFFALO TRAIL

  28. CADDO AREA

  29. CALCASIEU

  30. CALIFORNIA INLAND EMPIRE

  31. CAPE COD & ISLANDS

  32. CAPE FEAR

  33. CAPITOL AREA

  34. CASCADE PACIFIC

  35. CATALINA

  36. CENTRAL ESCARPMENT

  37. CENTRAL FLORIDA

  38. CENTRAL GEORGIA

  39. CENTRAL MINNESOTA

  40. CENTRAL NEW JERSEY

  41. CENTRAL NORTH CAROLINA

  42. CHATTAHOOCHEE

  43. CHEROKEE AREA 469

  44. CHEROKEE AREA 556

  45. CHESTER COUNTY

  46. CHICKASAW

  47. CHIEF CORNPLANTER

  48. CHIEF SEATTLE

  49. CHIPPEWA VALLEY

  50. CHOCTAW AREA

  51. CIMARRON

  52. CIRCLE TEN

  53. COASTAL CAROLINA

  54. COASTAL GEORGIA

  55. COLONIAL VIRGINIA

  56. COLUMBIA‐MONTOUR

  57. CONNECTICUT RIVERS

  58. CONNECTICUT YANKEE

  59. CONQUISTADOR

  60. CORNHUSKER

  61. CORONADO AREA

  62. CRADLE OF LIBERTY

  63. CRATER LAKE COUNCIL

  64. CROSSROADS OF AMERICA

  65. CROSSROADS OF THE WEST

  66. DAN BEARD

  67. DANIEL BOONE

  68. DANIEL WEBSTER

  69. DE SOTO AREA

  70. DEL‐MAR‐VA

  71. DENVER AREA

  72. DIRECT SERVICE

  73. EAST CAROLINA

  74. EAST TEXAS AREA

  75. ERIE SHORES

  76. EVANGELINE AREA

  77. FAR EAST

  78. FIVE RIVERS

  79. FLINT RIVER

  80. FRENCH CREEK

  81. GAMEHAVEN

  82. GARDEN STATE

  83. GATEWAY AREA

  84. GEORGIA‐CAROLINA

  85. GLACIER'S EDGE

  86. GOLDEN EMPIRE

  87. GOLDEN GATE AREA

  88. GOLDEN SPREAD

  89. GRAND CANYON

  90. GRAND COLUMBIA

  91. GRAND TETON

  92. GREAT ALASKA

  93. GREAT RIVERS

  94. GREAT SMOKY MOUNTAIN

  95. GREAT SOUTHWEST

  96. GREAT TRAIL

  97. GREAT TRIAL

  98. GREATER ALABAMA

  99. GREATER LOS ANGELES

  100. GREATER NEW YORK

  101. GREATER NIAGARA FRONTIER

  102. GREATER ST. LOUIS AREA

  103. GREATER TAMPA BAY AREA

  104. GREATER TORONTO

  105. GREATER WYOMING

  106. GREATER YOSEMITE

  107. GREEN MOUNTAIN

  108. GREENWICH

  109. GULF COAST

  110. GULF STREAM

  111. HAWK MOUNTAIN

  112. HAWKEYE AREA

  113. HEART OF AMERICA

  114. HEART OF NEW ENGLAND

  115. HEART OF VIRGINIA

  116. HOOSIER TRAILS

  117. HOUSATONIC

  118. HUDSON VALLEY

  119. ILLOWA

  120. INDIAN NATIONS

  121. INDIAN WATERS

  122. INLAND NORTHWEST

  123. IROQUOIS TRAIL

  124. ISTROUMA AREA

  125. JAYHAWK AREA

  126. JERSEY SHORE

  127. JUNIATA VALLEY

  128. KATAHDIN AREA

  129. LAKE ERIE

  130. LAS VEGAS AREA

  131. LASALLE

  132. LAST FRONTIER

  133. LAUREL HIGHLANDS

  134. LEATHERSTOCKING

  135. LINCOLN HERITAGE

  136. LONG BEACH AREA

  137. LONGHORN

  138. LONGHOUSE

  139. LONGS PEAK COUNCIL

  140. LOS PADRES

  141. LOUISIANA PURCHASE

  142. MARIN

  143. MASON‐DIXON

  144. MASSUA COUNTY

  145. MAYFLOWER

  146. MECKLENBURG COUNTY

  147. MIAMI VALLEY

  148. MICHIGAN CROSSROADS

  149. MID‐AMERICA

  150. MIDDLE TENNESSEE

  151. MID‐IOWA

  152. MIDNIGHT SUN

  153. MINSI TRAILS

  154. MISSISSIPPI VALLEY

  155. MOBILE AREA

  156. MONMOUTH

  157. MONTANA

  158. MORAINE TRAILS

  159. MOUNT BAKER

  160. MOUNTAIN WEST

  161. MOUNTAINEER AREA

  162. MUSKINGUM VALLEY

  163. NARRAGANSETT

  164. NATIONAL CAPITAL AREA

  165. NEVADA AREA

  166. NEW BIRTH OF FREEDOM

  167. NORTH FLORIDA

  168. NORTHEAST GEORGIA

  169. NORTHEAST ILLINOIS

  170. NORTHEAST IOWA COUNCIL

  171. NORTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA

  172. NORTHERN LIGHTS

  173. NORTHERN NEW JERSEY

  174. NORTHERN STAR

  175. NORTHWEST GEORGIA

  176. NORTHWEST TEXAS

  177. NORWELA

  178. OCCONEECHEE

  179. OHIO RIVER VALLEY

  180. OLD HICKORY

  181. OLD NORTH STATE

  182. ORANGE COUNTY

  183. OREGON TRAIL

  184. OVERLAND TRAILS

  185. OZARK TRAILS

  186. PACIFIC HARBORS

  187. PACIFIC SKYLINE

  188. PALMETTO

  189. PATHWAY TO ADVENTURE

  190. PATRIOTS' PATH

  191. PEE DEE AREA

  192. PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH

  193. PIEDMONT 042

  194. PIEDMONT 420

  195. PIKES PEAK

  196. PINE BURR AREA

  197. PINE TREE

  198. PONY EXPRESS

  199. POTAWATOMI AREA

  200. PRAIRIELANDS

  201. PUERTO RICO

  202. PUSHMATAHA AREA

  203. QUAPAW AREA

  204. QUIVIRA

  205. RAINBOW

  206. REDWOOD EMPIRE

  207. RIO GRANDE

  208. RIP VAN WINKLE

  209. ROCKY MOUNTAIN

  210. SAGAMORE

  211. SAM HOUSTON AREA

  212. SAMOSET COUNCIL

  213. SAN DIEGO ‐ IMPERIAL COUNCIL

  214. SANTA FE TRAIL

  215. SENECA WATERWAYS

  216. SEQUOIA

  217. SEQUOYAH

  218. SHENANDOAH AREA

  219. SILICON VALLEY MONTEREY BAY

  220. SIMON KENTON

  221. SIOUX

  222. SOUTH FLORIDA COUNCIL

  223. SOUTH GEORGIA

  224. SOUTH PLAINS

  225. SOUTH TEXAS

  226. SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA

  227. SOUTHERN SIERRA

  228. SOUTHWEST FLORIDA

  229. SPIRIT OF ADVENTURE

  230. SUFFOLK COUNTY

  231. SUSQUEHANNA

  232. SUWANNEE RIVER AREA

  233. TECUMSEH

  234. TEXAS SOUTHWEST

  235. TEXAS TRAILS

  236. THEODORE ROOSEVELT

  237. THREE FIRES

  238. THREE HARBORS

  239. THREE RIVERS

  240. TIDEWATER

  241. TRANSATLANTIC

  242. TUKABATCHEE AREA

  243. TUSCARORA

  244. TWIN RIVERS

  245. TWIN VALLEY

  246. VENTURA COUNTY

  247. VERDUGO HILLS

  248. VIRGINIA HEADWATERS

  249. VOYAGEURS AREA

  250. W.D. BOYCE

  251. WASHINGTON CROSSING

  252. WEST TENNESSEE AREA

  253. WESTARK AREA

  254. WESTCHESTER‐PUTNAM

  255. WESTERN LOS ANGELES COUNTY

  256. WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS

  257. WESTMORELAND‐FAYETTE

  258. WINNEBAGO

  259. YOCONA AREA

  260. YUCCA

 

 

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This seemed a promising quote from the judge:

Quote

“I don’t want to hear that someone decided it was inconvenient or they couldn’t show,” Silverstein added, noting that professional and attorney fees in the bankruptcy case have already cost the Boy Scouts more than $100 million.

 

“I think that is a staggering number, and progress needs to be made,” the judge said. “Victims need to be compensated appropriately, and the Boy Scouts’ mission needs to continue.... Every dollar to professional fees is a dollar that comes out of some creditor’s pocket.”

I know I'm looking for a silver lining, but this was promising.  "the Boy Scouts' mission needs to continue".  Sounds like liquidation isn't an end she favors.

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19 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I know I'm looking for a silver lining, but this was promising.  "the Boy Scouts' mission needs to continue".  Sounds like liquidation isn't an end she favors.

Right, the judge has been clear she wants a BSA to emerge. My concern this whole time has been that won't happen because of a) inability to get 66% of abuse claimants to agree to a plan and b) Kosnoff driving for liquidation and c) Local Councils not willing to cough up the money needed to get to a settlement.

In other words, it may be that MOST parties involved (other than the Kosnoff team) want to see the Boy Scouts mission continue, but no one can agree on a way forward, so it dies anyway.

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36 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Right, the judge has been clear she wants a BSA to emerge. My concern this whole time has been that won't happen because of a) inability to get 66% of abuse claimants to agree to a plan and b) Kosnoff driving for liquidation and c) Local Councils not willing to cough up the money needed to get to a settlement.

In other words, it may be that MOST parties involved (other than the Kosnoff team) want to see the Boy Scouts mission continue, but no one can agree on a way forward, so it dies anyway.

Is that when she might entertain a cramdown approach?  Would she not be able to let BSA national complete a chapter 11 bankruptcy and declare the amount they have to pay to creditors? 

To her point, if she did focus on the 100 million in legal fees the BSA has already paid, she may be getting frustrated with the insurance companies and lawyers for the claimants.  From my amateur viewpoint, that would seem a scenario where a judge might impose a settlement.

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https://www.wsj.com/articles/local-boy-scouts-councils-agree-to-cooperate-on-abuse-victims-probe-11616017053

"Under a pact approved Wednesday in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Wilmington, Del., lawsuits can be filed against the local councils that hold the bulk of the Boy Scouts wealth, but the litigation won’t progress until mid-July. The trade off is that survivors’ lawyers will receive detailed roster data needed to identify local councils and other organizations that chartered individual troops where the sexual abuse took place."

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1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

"Under a pact approved Wednesday in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Wilmington, Del., lawsuits can be filed against the local councils that hold the bulk of the Boy Scouts wealth, but the litigation won’t progress until mid-July. The trade off is that survivors’ lawyers will receive detailed roster data needed to identify local councils and other organizations that chartered individual troops where the sexual abuse took place."

To quote from Peter Gabriel, Lord, here comes the flood.

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16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

This, as I interpret it, this is the official Motion to shove the Estimation process down (over?) to District Court.

Appears to be: "

By this Motion, the Movants respectfully ask that the reference be withdrawn so that estimation can proceed in the District Court, as we believe it must.

Here, the estimation will bear the hallmarks of a “trial”: The parties will take fact discovery, offer experts, call witnesses, and try to judgment the aggregate value of the Abuse Claims. The District Court may well make case-dispositive legal rulings, and the estimation will culminate in a binding judgment setting a de facto cap on the value of Abuse Claims for distribution purposes. See supra at 8-9. Estimation of these personal injury claims therefore must proceed in the District Court. 

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2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Anybody watching the zoom of the Chapter 11 hearing today?  Any punches thrown? Just heard that there was an exchange that $100M has been spent on lawyers to date and $150M will be spent by August.  Judge called it "staggering".

So $250 MILLION on lawyer fees by August?   Say settlement of $500m or even $1B (insurance, etc).  It is possible that law firms will get more money than victims.  $250M + 25%/30% of award + (legal fees after August ??)...  50/50 split would be about a $500M award.  $1B award would be about a 60/40 split (victims/law firms). 

This is just completely ugly.

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6 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's in the BSA case.  Does it address state specific SOLs?  Does it address cases that local councils already resolved via previous settlement?  

It is fair to say ... the BSA  list is a fishing expedition.  It's naive to think any council did not experience abuse cases.  Just as it's naive to think that any school district or other large organization with youth did not experience abuse cases.  

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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

So $250 MILLION on lawyer fees by August?

I believe the estimate is that a total of $150M in fees will be spent through July. $10M per month'ish. (Just saved $100M. Now, they have plenty of money and time to burn it. Jk.)

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2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

It's naive to think any council did not experience abuse cases.

I suppose. I would love to analyze the data to discover if there are discernible pockets where abuse did not occur (Troops, towns, etc.) and see what can be learned from the patterns that emerge, if any.

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