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17 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

My point is that even the 9 TCC victims care, of  50% of the victims care or 60% of the victims care, it only takes 33% of abuse victims to say "no" and BSA's dead.

I understand and appreciate that, and don't care to meddle in the projections of how what happens when and by what vote. I'm no good at it. I am merely pointing out, which I know some don't or won't believe, that this is not a "battle" these men entered into with bloodthirsty glee. I realize you are talking about the practical application, as you absolutely should. How someone feels or doesn't is irrelevant to that equation, but the TCC is people, not the Death Star. It's okay to portray them as such, but I've chimed in with my two denarii.  

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What is legally right is not always morally right.

I would encourage everyone to not ask @ThenNow to rehash particular circumstances. They can be found by patiently browsing his posts. From what I read, they were far from legal. His claim would have b

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I am not going to quote anyone specifically, since many people have commented about how the lawsuits are unfair to current and future scouts. It is unfair, but no more unfair than the national debt.  They are going to inherit that too.  They will also inherit all of the nation's infrastructure.

It is important to remember that our kids didn't build any of these camps.  They inherited the camps.  Past generations built them and paid for them.  The generations that built these camps are the same generations that allowed the child sexual abuse.  They are paying for it.

After the bankruptcy, current and future scouts will be starting anew with a clean slate.  It will now be up to them to build their own futures.  I wish them luck.

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19 minutes ago, David CO said:

I am not going to quote anyone specifically, since many people have commented about how the lawsuits are unfair to current and future scouts. It is unfair, but no more unfair than the national debt.  They are going to inherit that too.  They will also inherit all of the nation's infrastructure.

It is important to remember that our kids didn't build any of these camps.  They inherited the camps.  Past generations built them and paid for them.  The generations that built these camps are the same generations that allowed the child sexual abuse.  They are paying for it.

After the bankruptcy, current and future scouts will be starting anew with a clean slate.  It will now be up to them to build their own futures.  I wish them luck.

I am sorry that this is the case and I agree. It's terrible, but my wife and sons also paid dearly for destructive things they did not do, deserve or play any part in unleashing. Perhaps even worse than if I caused it, the debt was created by injustices done to me. Nonetheless, they inherited it. Awful on all counts. 

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28 minutes ago, David CO said:

I am not going to quote anyone specifically, since many people have commented about how the lawsuits are unfair to current and future scouts. It is unfair, but no more unfair than the national debt.  They are going to inherit that too.  They will also inherit all of the nation's infrastructure.

It is important to remember that our kids didn't build any of these camps.  They inherited the camps.  Past generations built them and paid for them.  The generations that built these camps are the same generations that allowed the child sexual abuse.  They are paying for it.

After the bankruptcy, current and future scouts will be starting anew with a clean slate.  It will now be up to them to build their own futures.  I wish them luck.

You are correct in saying that the current youth did not build the camps.  My guess is that few of the abusers built the camps either though there are no doubt high profile exceptions.  Essentially none are 'paying for it' as most are dead or elderly and not involved with the program.  It will not come from the pockets of volunteers except from those of us who will try to rebuild Scouting after it is devastated.  The life changing experiences might not occur without camps as often.

 

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FYI. I ran the statistical analysis I had intended on the abuse claims data vs. the number of youth in BSA.

As I suspected, the  number of claims and number of registered youth were found to be strongly correlated.

In other words, it gives credence to the idea that it wasn't YPT that resulted in the decline in abuse claims; it was the decline in the number of scouts.

Large positive relationship: Pearson r =  0.86, p < .01.
Strong positive relationship: Spearman rho = 0.94. p < .01

This cannot and does not mean that we can demonstrate a causal relationship (correlation does not equal causation) but it is very, very interesting and could suggest that maybe, perhaps that the decline in abuse claims is mostly, if not entirely, the result of a decline in the number of registered youth. But the only way to determine that is with more analysis.

Year

 

Total Youth

 

Total Claims

 

1990

3918672

1,125

1991

3501233

977

1992

3453315

947

1993

3427374

902

1994

3403334

843

1995

3460795

782

1996

3518255

759

1997

3624038

662

1998

3693439

635

1999

3742852

538

2000

3351969

532

2001

3325504

369

2002

3238027

357

2003

3200218

325

2004

3145331

241

2005

2938698

227

2006

2868963

202

2007

2855833

171

2008

2979200

159

2009

2911351

136

2010

2852754

120

2011

2836652

94

2012

2775383

88

2013

2612955

57

2014

2418727

57

2015

2355331

35

2016

2341207

38

2017

2282584

47

2018

2186329

36

2019

2118449

18

 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I am sorry that this is the case and I agree. It's terrible, but my wife and sons also paid dearly for destructive things they did not do, deserve or play any part in unleashing. Perhaps even worse than if I caused it, the debt was created by an injustices done to me. Nonetheless, they inherited it. Awful on all counts. 

On these forums, I always accept fellow Scouters as trustworthy until shown to be otherwise.  So in that vein, you have paid a terrible price for something forced upon you.  For that, I have sympathy.  You family will have suffered from your scars.  That is not fair.

Unfortunately, there is no real fairness.  To me, fairness would be to see all the perpetrators in prison for their crime,  some monetary compensation for their pain and suffering from the perpetrators and enablers (which could be the BSA), and counseling that helps them to put this into the past.  The fair thing to current Scouts is to not damage the program and camps.  Unfortunately, there is not enough liquidity in all Scouting to satisfy both needs.

The entire situation is sad.  

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2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I know its a long shot, but I would like for it all to hang on till Nov or Dec.  I would like to get my current Webelos Den through Arrow of Light.  

 

Why not buy all the patches and pins now and keep chugging? Irrespective of what happens have the B&G and make it fun. The scouts don't care about all of this.

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3 minutes ago, MattR said:

Why not buy all the patches and pins now and keep chugging? Irrespective of what happens have the B&G and make it fun. The scouts don't care about all of this.

No one ever checked BSA's ScoutNet record to see if someone had his Arrow of Light, except for registrars validating Eagle Scout Applications to verify program eligibility.

Concur, buy the stuff, do the program, have a blast, celebrate the achievement, and give 'em the bling!

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9 hours ago, ThenNow said:

I went to sleep thinking about this last night and don't sleep much as it is.

I lose a lot of sleep too, both literally and figuratively.  I often look back on my teaching, coaching and scouting careers and wonder if I did the right things.  I thought I did.   But I wonder.

There was little expectation of privacy in scouting during the post-WWII years.  This carried on through most of the 80's.  Did this contribute to the problem?  I don't know.  I would like to think it didn't.  But I don't know.

When I meet my final accounting, I hope that I don't learn that any of my actions and decisions, or inactions and indecisions, contributed, directly or indirectly, to any instance of child sexual abuse.  

 

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12 minutes ago, David CO said:

When I meet my final accounting, I hope that I don't learn that any of my actions and decisions, or inactions and indecisions, contributed, directly or indirectly, to any instance of child sexual abuse.  

Oh, gosh. I hope the book doesn't contain all prospects for unintended omissions and/or commissions. If I get there, the unfortunate soul behind me better have fetched along a book, some whittling, lunch and coffee. At least. Maybe a sleeping bag. 

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1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Oh, gosh. I hope the book doesn't contain all prospects for unintended omissions 

I am old-time Catholic.  I still believe in sins of omission.  I don't worry much about holding up the line.  Purgatory has a very large waiting room.  My fear is that it has Musak.

 

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1 hour ago, David CO said:

I still believe in sins of omission.

Sure, but not ignorance without malice or negligence.

Hm. I believe there’s a “choose one” menu. It includes a loop of the most sleep-inducing homily you EVER heard complete with a poke in the ribs every time you start to nod, a never ending stint in the closet with the incense censer going full blast, serving 6:15 mass in continual successive rotation or replaying the time you spoke way to loud in the confessional only to discover your classmates overheard every sin you confessed that week. Okay. I’ll stop, but you started it...

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16 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Okay. I’ll stop, but you started it...

It's Sunday.  Hardly anyone comes on the forum on Sunday.  The moderators aren't around to prod us into getting back on topic.  Feel free to bloviate.

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16 minutes ago, David CO said:

  Feel free to bloviate.

I just sent that to my family and told them they have to make their selection now. My baby sister wants to see the daily special or hazard the chef’s choice. 

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