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1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

A similar concept exists with female and male youth.  If you're looking at a crew and notice that girls are doing all the organizing the issue really isn't that girls are naturally better organizers than boys.  The issue is that in your crew you've got a significant part of the team that isn't engaged in or leading the Crew planning.  Take a look at changing that without getting too hung up on whether it's a boy thing or girl thing.  Of course, any parent or leader who starts to talk about how great it is that the girls in the crew are leading everything sets themselves up for the same comments I've made above.

Ah! the "boys and girls are equal" analogy. Looking at cause and effect is not a hang up, it's a consideration in developing a strategy. You approach it from your perspective, others will approach it from their perspective. Simplifying the situation by starting with girls and boys are equal is condescending. It's that adults respecting other adults modeling I was talking about. Ironically, I believe your perspective is more close minded than mine.

I've grown old concluding that the secret of a good life is balance in everything. I this case, I agree with David Co. If we let the youth of this example crew choose, we would likely see them segregate. Or do nothing and wait for a higher authority (adults, not the other Guy) tell them what to do, which is what most crews end up doing. I believe that the free thinking behavior habits of humans are basically set by the Venturing age, so I personally think balance was lost several years before.

There was a recent article about the American women's soccer team demanding equal compensation with the men's soccer team. In short, the dilemma is nobody goes to watch women's soccer, so their are very few sponsors. Now, I guess we could say the issue is sexist sponsors, or sexist sport fans or whatever trigger response throws guilt in the discussion, but the truth is probably more toward the difference between men and women. Is forcing sponsorship a balance?

Of course sometimes balance requires compromise. I recently went to the action adventure movie Downton Abbey purely to make my wife happy. Men and women are different even with movies. My wife was truly thankful for giving my time to her, but I'm equally fine leaving her home so she wouldn't have to drudge through Ford versus Ferrari. Humility and love. 

Barry

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24 minutes ago, David CO said:

That's a recurring nightmare of mine.  Moms with chainsaws.

My recurring nightmare is that my husband will make me use the chainsaw.  :laugh:  I can, but I hate it and it scares me.

  • Haha 3

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37 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Ah! the "boys and girls are equal" analogy. Looking at cause and effect is not a hang up, it's a consideration in developing a strategy. You approach it from your perspective, others will approach it from their perspective. Simplifying the situation by starting with girls and boys are equal is condescending. It's that adults respecting other adults modeling I was talking about. Ironically, I believe your perspective is more close minded than mine.

I've grown old concluding that the secret of a good life is balance in everything. I this case, I agree with David Co. If we let the youth of this example crew choose, we would likely see them segregate. Or do nothing and wait for a higher authority (adults, not the other Guy) tell them what to do, which is what most crews end up doing. I believe that the free thinking behavior habits of humans are basically set by the Venturing age, so I personally think balance was lost several years before.

That's not my point on youth.  I don't doubt that there are some gender differences.  So what?  My point is the we should stop worrying about whether girls are better leaders than boys.  Just focus on developing those skills that individual scouts need and are keeping them from taking on a leadership role.  If it turns out that you' have to focus more on a group of boys to do that than a group of girls, so be it.

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

There was a recent article about the American women's soccer team demanding equal compensation with the men's soccer team. In short, the dilemma is nobody goes to watch women's soccer, so their are very few sponsors. Now, I guess we could say the issue is sexist sponsors, or sexist sport fans or whatever trigger response throws guilt in the discussion, but the truth is probably more toward the difference between men and women. Is forcing sponsorship a balance?

Of course sometimes balance requires compromise. I recently went to the action adventure movie Downton Abbey purely to make my wife happy. Men and women are different even with movies. My wife was truly thankful for giving my time to her, but I'm equally fine leaving her home so she wouldn't have to drudge through Ford versus Ferrari. Humility and love. 

Barry

Your movie analogy is a very good one and one which I think shows some of these choices have more to do with upbringing than gender.  I go to the movie's about 6 times a year.  Marvel, DC, Star Wars, Ford. vs. Ferrari, Fast and Furious, etc...  My wife couldn't care less about any of them and stay home.  But, my daughters see just about every one.  My daughters see and follow just about all of the same franchises as my son does.  Now, if I were to infer that females like movies about feelings and males like action movies, my daughters would have missed out on all of this.  But, I never inferred that and always invited them.  So, there's very little difference in what my kids watch for movies. 

If you look at either my wife's or my upbringing you'll see parents who much more prominently favored traditional boy or girl roles.  So, in my wife you see interests that reflect that upbringing.  As times have evolved, you see fewer traditional boy or girl activities for my kids - so their interests are increasingly similar.  Their friend groups are increasingly more mixed gender too.

 

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I may have posted this observation before, but my old age is affecting my memory a bit.  If I did, please nod and move on.

I spent 15+ years substitute teaching, initially primarily in the middle grades.  Later, I started leaning to the 3rd and below, joking that they were still smaller than me.  But one thing I note looking back is that in middle school, if the groups are set up by the teacher, the girls tended to become the moderator of sorts if the group was balanced and it was left to them.  Often there was a boy that seemed comfortable simply sort of feeding the leader ideas, but often the boys kept quiet and tried to veg a little.  In the upper grades, there appeared to be more parity, with males tending to take charge more readily.  And that seems to be a reflection on maturation speeds more than anything.  Ironically, I also noticed that when the girl led groups were confronted by boy led groups, the girls tended to be less aggressive in the discussions and even giving in when they had strong opinions with good support.  But, girls tended to ask more questions overall.  How much this all has to do with family interactions and societal norms is a separate subject still evolving in our changed society.  I personally would rather see a strong girl led coed patrol than a poorly led all male one.  Again, evolution and adjustments.  BP was forced to recognize that girls wanted to do Scouting too.  And he moved within the confines of his time to make it happen.  

     I personally feel we that we should allow coed troops, and possibly coed patrols.  But the separation could be on the patrol level, just as it is on den level in Cubs.  We have already seen that all girl patrols mostly held their own or outdid the boy patrols at the first camporee interactions.  That challenge though is reflected in the real world as well.  So it is another option to bringing our youth into the larger society.

Just as I have observed and reasoned.  Not the expert.

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On 1/7/2020 at 5:52 PM, Pale Horse said:

Jsychk most certainly did associate strong leadership as the realm of males. 

The one strong leader female example was grudging given praise as "getting by".

To quote: "Last year, the Webelos II had 1 strong dad who took the responsibility of leading the boys and providing a rich program... Moms were there to support by decorating the B&G venue, helping with the food, etc,. I think this is what a Pack should look like."  This is explicitly stating that men make better leaders and women are ok to "help setup".

You are conflating 2 points that Jsychk made.  They clearly stated that they had strong male and strong female leaders of different dens, as well as one weak male leader.  Thus "strength" clearly wasn't being automatically associated as a "male" trait.

Then, in another point entirely they stated that the "strong male leader" supported by a bunch of moms was their opinion of "the ideal" arrangement for a den.  Now, I would argue that the army of support, whether moms or dads, was probably a bigger factor in being able to maintain a den of 19 scouts, rather than the gender of the leader, but regardless, stating a preference for one gender over another in a specific situation isn't the same as saying that "strength" or "leadership" are inherently gendered traits.

But part of the problem with evaluating situations like "who makes the best leader" is that you have to actually be exposed to the different options in order to include it in your mental calculus.  Clearly, a single boisterous, outgoing parent as den leader with a bunch of parents running backup and support is going to be pretty much ideal for any den.  However, my experience too has been that generally when a dad is the den leader, you get plenty of moms looking to "help out"; whereas with a female den leader, you don't get the same outpouring of parent help.  I'm uncertain as to the reason, but my gut would tell me that the moms tend to assume the dads will need help with organization and setup, but if the leader is female they figure "She's got this".

 

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On 1/8/2020 at 9:37 PM, swilliams said:

My recurring nightmare is that my husband will make me use the chainsaw.  :laugh:  I can, but I hate it and it scares me.

Lol, the same with me

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