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Your problems with JTE

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10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

We as Scouters don't so much need another plaque to tell us who the best troop is - we generally know that stuff.

Need 'em?  Nope.  Want 'em?  Oh yeah.  The other troops in the district aren't the only audience.

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Honestly do any actual Scouts (or Cubs / Venturers / Explorers ) really care if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know what JTE is??

My point is that JTE seems to be (is??) adult leaders reporting things to other adults leaders who then report to other adult leaders who then report to more adult leaders.  

The intent is good and at it's heart there can be benefit.  In practice it's a form that unit leaders fill out as another leader finalizes the recharter form(s).  One more piece of paperwork.

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2 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

Need 'em?  Nope.  Want 'em?  Oh yeah.  The other troops in the district aren't the only audience.

Ok - I'll take your word on it.

I actually find the evolution of this topic kind of odd.  We started out going through all the limitations of JTE and are now discussing how if we made it a competition, people would participate more.  Guess I'm more interested in really addressing the issue that JTE is designed for than trying to find ways to promote it.

I'm reminded that JTE feels a lot to me like other BSA initiatives.  That the BSA needs to find a way to manage units.  We see it from national, I see it from the council professionals too.  But, in reality this is all backwards - the BSA shouldn't be trying to manage units.  The BSA should be looking at how they can best support units.  Getting units to become more successful involves personal investment of time to understand the personal goals of units, to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow.  You can't achieve this through a form or by assessments from council.  It's people investing time and working with people.  Yet, if they don't want to grow, then the BSA needs to find a way to start a second unit down the street.  

This is why I find stuff like JTE, online training, etc. - the wrong answer.  This is why I find ideas like empowering the district/council with the ability to force change in a unit - the wrong answer.

 

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1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Honestly do any actual Scouts (or Cubs / Venturers / Explorers ) really care if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know if they are Bronze - Silver - Gold - Chartreuse??  Do they even know what JTE is??

My point is that JTE seems to be (is??) adult leaders reporting things to other adults leaders who then report to other adult leaders who then report to more adult leaders.  

The intent is good and at it's heart there can be benefit.  In practice it's a form that unit leaders fill out as another leader finalizes the recharter form(s).  One more piece of paperwork.

Scouts will care if the adults in the unit treat it like it matters.  But for the time being, it only matters to the district folks and above.  For unit leaders currently, it is just one more piece of paperwork.

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11 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Ok - I'll take your word on it.

I actually find the evolution of this topic kind of odd.  We started out going through all the limitations of JTE and are now discussing how if we made it a competition, people would participate more.  Guess I'm more interested in really addressing the issue that JTE is designed for than trying to find ways to promote it.

I'm reminded that JTE feels a lot to me like other BSA initiatives.  That the BSA needs to find a way to manage units.  We see it from national, I see it from the council professionals too.  But, in reality this is all backwards - the BSA shouldn't be trying to manage units.  The BSA should be looking at how they can best support units.  Getting units to become more successful involves personal investment of time to understand the personal goals of units, to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow.  You can't achieve this through a form or by assessments from council.  It's people investing time and working with people.  Yet, if they don't want to grow, then the BSA needs to find a way to start a second unit down the street.  

This is why I find stuff like JTE, online training, etc. - the wrong answer.  This is why I find ideas like empowering the district/council with the ability to force change in a unit - the wrong answer.

I don't disagree with you.  But JTE -- while crude and limited -- is the system we have now.  So, rather than waste it by keeping it as just one more piece of paperwork, is there some way we can use JTE to, in your words, "[get] units to become more successful . . .to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow."  I'm suggesting that if we can get units motivated to use it in some fashion, that's a win -- however minor.

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11 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

I don't disagree with you.  But JTE -- while crude and limited -- is the system we have now.  So, rather than waste it by keeping it as just one more piece of paperwork, is there some way we can use JTE to, in your words, "[get] units to become more successful . . .to help their leaders grow, become excited about Scouting, to have a desire to grow."  I'm suggesting that if we can get units motivated to use it in some fashion, that's a win -- however minor.

Ok - I can get behind that - to a point.  I do think we have to be very upfront that this is what we're talking about.  JTE is a pretty mediocre tool, but it is a tool.  So leveraging the tools we have to the best of their potential is good.

Yet, I think we have to be careful that we don't continue to further the belief that JTE is the desired way to accomplish these goals.  

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2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Ok - I can get behind that - to a point.  I do think we have to be very upfront that this is what we're talking about.  JTE is a pretty mediocre tool, but it is a tool.  So leveraging the tools we have to the best of their potential is good.

Yet, I think we have to be careful that we don't continue to further the belief that JTE is the desired way to accomplish these goals.  

or that Gold actually represents Excellence. I see that not getting gold means serious deficiencies in at least the basics. Like a restaurant passing their health inspection. It doesn't mean the food in any good, just that the place shouldn't be shut down.

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Slightly different perspective here:  brand new unit,  brand new scouts,  brand new scouters.   The JTE came across as a helpful handy list of things troops should generally be doing.   Even to someone new like me, it was obvious that a high JTE score deesn't guarantee a terrific unit -- but rather that if there are areas in which a unit scores really poorly,  it is worth considering the reasons why.

 

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The JTM scores are largely irrelevant to Scouting, which, for example, presumes: 1) actual use of the Patrol Method, including most program time acting as patrol teams; 2) planning BY Scouts, as opposed to planning "involving Scouts," whatever that means; 3) youth active in Scouting program, vs, merely "registered" [$$$$ for BSA]; 4) service measured by service rendered or, at least number of Scout-hours of time devoted, vs. meaningless numbers of "projects," each "participated in" by as few as a single Scout or single unit adult;  and 5) "weekend camping" out-of-doors for a defined "weekend," vs. an indefinite period indoors doing nothing in particular.  

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