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desertrat77

BSA Mortgages Philmont Scout Ranch

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I'd be really interested to know why they don't just declare bankruptcy and be done with.  Placing Philmont at risk is an utterly nonsense move.  Very sad.

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2 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I'd be really interested to know why they don't just declare bankruptcy and be done with.  Placing Philmont at risk is an utterly nonsense move.  Very sad.

Bankruptcy leads to sale of assets to pay off creditors.  The "risk" we see is caused by the reckless spending, borrowing, and assumption of liabilities.  BSA needs a reduction in by far its biggest expense - salaries, to be in proportion to youth served.  

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We are not at bankruptcy yet, there is no court involvement, no Chapter 11 trustee overseeing and reorganizing us, the debtor.

Seven months ago, National secretly extended their credit line by $446 million to spend as they wish, though presumably for liability insurance. Not legally necessary? to discuss this action before or after with the Philmont Ranch Committee or the Waite Phillips family and maybe not the Executive Board, and certainly not the members. I doubt former BSA President Rex Tillerson was informed. As Philmont Scout Ranch Committee Member and attorney Mr. Stinnett wrote. “The first point of the Scout Law is ‘A Scout is trustworthy.’ I am distressed beyond words at learning that our leaders apparently have not been.”

So $446 million more for National to spend as they wish and faced with the loss of that control and executive job loss when bankruptcy reorganization arrives, will the money be used for insurance or/and pay raises, pensions, severance packages, and golden parachutes? Merry Christmas.

...Waite Philips magnificent gift has now been put at risk.” Save Philmont for future generations.

Please contact Mark Stinnett and ask him to take legal measures to reverse this “betrayal” of agreements made with the Phillips family. 

mstinnett@stmmlaw.com

My $0.02,

Edited by RememberSchiff
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This morning I picked up a newspaper and this story made the front page.  The BSA cannot seem to help getting itself more and more bad publicity.   I'm generally pretty supportive of national as I know they have a tough job right now.  But the way this was handled was awful.  Risking the crown jewel of the BSA, not even discussing this with the oversight board, and all this news now of these arrogant statements to the board.  You put all of that on top of the poor marketing and commimications national does anyways.  I really do think that it's time for a serious influx of outside leadership into the BSA.  This process of promoting from within is not working.

43 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

...Waite Philips magnificent gift has now been put at risk.” Save Philmont for future generations.

Please contact Mark Stinnett and ask him to take legal measures to reverse this “betrayal” of agreements made with the Phillips family. 

mstinnett@stmmlaw.com

I fully agree.  Can we sticky this?

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There was a Reddit discussion on this a few days ago and information there said it has been mortgaged for a line of credit since 2010. If that's true, I don't know why the steering committee wouldn't have known or why the BSA is not putting out a clarifying statement. Regardless, it seems BSA merrily continues to shoot us all in the foot. Whether it's bad information or bad publicity, it hardly seems to matter at this point.  

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16 minutes ago, yknot said:

There was a Reddit discussion on this a few days ago and information there said it has been mortgaged for a line of credit since 2010. If that's true, I don't know why the steering committee wouldn't have known or why the BSA is not putting out a clarifying statement. Regardless, it seems BSA merrily continues to shoot us all in the foot. Whether it's bad information or bad publicity, it hardly seems to matter at this point.  

I read the mortgage and the references to the 2010 and 2012 agreement didn’t include Philmont, it was for land in West Virginia for the “Arrow WV Project”.     Project Arrow (in Wedt Virgina) is Summit.

 

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1 hour ago, yknot said:

Thank you. Not good news, but thank you for clarifying that. 

There could be a chance Philmont was mortgaged since 2010 I just didn’t see it in the document.   I did look into the references Arrow WV Inc.  That is a non profit setup by the BSA.  I checked Arrow WV Inc last 990 from Dec 2017 and found that at the end of 2017 it had liabilities of $330M and net income of -8.5M.   

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1 hour ago, 5thGenTexan said:

No doubt yall all know more about the Scouting world than I do, but this was on FB this evening...

image.png.b27c772fa02fc0d1801805259f4cf1b2.png

 

Just to verify, I went on facebook and looked for Stinnett's facebook page (he's a lawyer in Colorado Springs). He put up two posts on the 21st: he quit his Philmont position as Camping/Program chairman and his National Committee Member position. So, I guess there's no point in sending him any email.

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4 hours ago, MattR said:

Just to verify, I went on facebook and looked for Stinnett's facebook page (he's a lawyer in Colorado Springs). He put up two posts on the 21st: he quit his Philmont position as Camping/Program chairman and his National Committee Member position. So, I guess there's no point in sending him any email.

Thanks for checking as I don't FB.  If National did not inform Mr. Stinnett while he served in either position, I can understand his quitting and if he does take legal action, the BSA would likely revoke his membership anyway.

Given his Scouting history, I suspect he still cares deeply about  Scouting and Philmont plus he is an attorney. IMHO, sending him an email  thanking him for his service to Scouting and asking him to save Philmont for future generations is worth our time and effort. 

Mark Stinnett

1975-1978: Camp Director and Ranger (Philmont) (from FB https://www.facebook.com/mark.stinnett.587)

2009:  first recipient Distinguished Service Award, Philmont Staff Association (from lawfirm profile )

2011: This year, Silver Sage Awards were presented to David Caffey, Edward Pease and Mark Stinnett.

Mark Stinnett worked at Philmont four years in the 1970s and has served as a former PSA President and the longest-tenured editor of High Country. He has also served on the Philmont Ranch Committee, the Program and Risk Management Task Force and the Health Lodge Task Force. Stinnett has also chaired the BSA Outdoor Programs Committee, the Fieldbook Task Force and the Biannual National Outdoor Conference.  from PhilNews, August 11, 2011

Civic Involvement (from lawfirm profile )
       Boy Scouts of America – National Council
            Chairman, National Outdoor Programs Support Committee                       
            Chairman, Fieldbook Task Force              
            Chairman, National Outdoor Conference
            Chairman, Camping & Properties Implementation Task Force,
                        National Membership Standards Study Initiative
            Member, National Camp Accreditation Committee
            Member, Outdoor Adventures Committee
            Member, Philmont Ranch Committee
       Boy Scouts of America – Philmont Scout Ranch
            Chairman, Program Task Force, Philmont Ranch Committee
            Chairman, Strategic Planning Task Force                       
            Member, Philmont Health Lodge Task Force             
            Instructor, Risk Management Training for Camp Directors
       Boy Scouts of America – Pikes Peak Council
            Member, Troop 78 Committee
       Challenger Learning Center of Colorado
            Former Advisor, Aerospace Explorer Post 1986
       National Eagle Scout Association
       Outdoor Organization Memberships:
            American Camp Association
            American Hiking Society
            Leave No Trace Center for Outdoor Ethics
       Philmont Staff Association
            President, 1994-1997
            National Director, 1990-1993
            Editor, High Country Magazine, 1998-2008
            Chairman, Presidents Committee, 2005-present
            Contributing Editor, High Country Magazine, 2009-present

My $0.02,

Edited by RememberSchiff
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8 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

No doubt yall all know more about the Scouting world than I do, but this was on FB this evening...

image.png.b27c772fa02fc0d1801805259f4cf1b2.png

 

No offense, but who is Suzanne Blanchard? How do we know her information is factually correct about the mortgage? What proof does she have to claim Stinnett and Smith, two long time Scouters and volunteers now seek to "destroy" the BSA? 

Let's be frank, and I likely speak for most, but not all of this forum. 

The behavior and decisions made by Irving over the last decade has caused volunteers like us to distrust the BSA. Oftentimes, even when decisions are made that I agreed with, the methods in which they were made were not transparent. Membership standard changes, YPT rule changes, last minute dues payments, conflicting or contradictory official resources; Do I need to keep going? Rarely if ever are clear justifications offered. Change can be good, but it's hard to have confidence in leadership when membership do not know why changes are made and what the end goals look like. That's leadership 101. There is no institution on earth that is worthy of 100% blind trust anymore.

It's unfortunate, but with some very real dangers facing the BSA and the leaderships lack of transparency and communications, it's not hard for me to believe the worst when news like this comes out. In all the articles the response from the BSA is telling. 
https://apnews.com/277936941c824110ab626b9f3a1e68de. There only response is, "yes we can mortgage it." No explanation for why, what the expect the outcome would be. Just keep going along... nothing to see here... stop asking questions... 

image.png.37a3e441ca65a417d4b8b2a5cd8678fa.png

It's not a surprise after decades of membership and volunteerism from many of us, that we would have questions and concerns, ones that likely will not be answered. Maybe Irving has forgotten that it's mostly the work of volunteers that builds and maintains the BSA, and the professional staff exist to serve the youth and the units. 

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