Advice needed on tubing

[OneHour 11]

Our boys wanted to go tubing down the Guadalupe River. The scoutmasters in the troop feel that we can not meet G2SS requirement for Safety Afloat; as a result, we advise the PLC to choose another activity. The SPL and some of the older boys resented that decision and claiming that this new group of adult leaders are out to destroy their fun. They wanted the way it was ... when they get to do whatever they want. Our previous SM and his staff basically tossed G2SS out the window! Last year when he allowed the tubing trip, he didn't even attend. One of the ASM attended. When I required that each boy needs to wear pfd's, I was met with resistance from one or two of the adults as well as their sons; however, I won that battle. As soon as we got into the water, one of the older promptly removed his pfd and that caused a chain reaction. Not only that, it was difficult to keep the boys together and have enough adults with them to satisfy Safety Afloat. Adding to my worries is the fact that there were many other people on the river, floating, drinking, cursing/swearing and making racist comment when they got drunk . It's not an ideal arena to have the boys in. First and foremost was the unsafe condition and secondly, the less than ideal environment to expose them to.

 

Right now, I'm on the older boys "hate list" for denying them their fun. Is there any way that we can conduct tubing safely within the G2SS guideline? What have y'all done? The G2SS does not mention tubing spefically, but all Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat guidelines imply that tubing can't be done safely. No matter how we explained it, the older boys will have the "but we did not get hurt before and the river is not that deep, only knee deep (well not everywhere is like that, there are spots where it will be over a 12 years old's head).

 

Suggestions? Thank you in advance.

 

1Hour

[Eamonn 61]

Howz about suggesting to the PLC that you put Snow Tubing on the agenda as a winter activity.

It might help get you off the list.

Eamonn.

[Bob White 20]

I think you have a non-issue here One-Hour. I am not sure what you are drawing your conclusion on, but tubing on water is an approved activity for Webelos, Scouts and Venturing.

 

Bob White

[scoutldr 732]

Is it worth risking your house and future income to get off the "hate list"?

 

G2SS is clear:

Tubing is mentioned, but the rules are no different

All trip leaders must have Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense Training

At least one leader must have CPR training

All scouts must be Swimmers

One BSA Lifeguard is recommended

PFDs must be worn by all participants

Cub Scouts (which includes Webs) may not go on "running water" and may only participate in approved Council or District activities

 

(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Bob White 20]

I hope what scoutldr is saying that there is no need to be on the hate list. The event is allowed and doable under the safety policies of the BSA, and that as long as you follow the policies of the BSA you do not have to fear losing your home of future income.

 

The moment those scouts removed their PDFs the adult leaders present should have brought the activity to a complete and instant halt, untill all PDFs were back on each and every scout. Anyone not wishing to comply should not have been allowed back into the water.

 

 

[scoutldr 732]

Absolutely. However, onehour gave the impression that he knew the requirements of the G2SS and had concluded that, for whatever reaason, the troop could not meet them. Therefore, the correct answer should be the trip's off, regardless of whether the SPL thinks it's "fair" or not.

 

He stated, "The scoutmasters in the troop feel that we can not meet G2SS requirement for Safety Afloat; as a result, we advise the PLC to choose another activity."

 

He also asked, "Is there any way that we can conduct tubing safely within the G2SS guideline?" THe answer is "yes, by enforcing the rules of Safety Afloat".

 

I would never second guess a leader who thought that an activity could not be conducted safely.

 

 

 

[OneHour 11]

Eamonn ... snow tubing ... highly unlikely in SE Texas!

 

BW ... welcome back. Yes, some of the scoutmasters feel that the buddy system as well as the boat buddy system can't be maintained. Only until this past Summer did we get two of our adults to attain BSA lifeguard status. Knowing some of our olders boys, some of them will get off their tube to swim ... now we have just violated the Safe Swim Defense of marking off Safe Area. Look out is almost impossible after the first "waterfall." The boys will be split up for sure. Last year, when we did this ... we could not find two of the boys until much later. Our BSA lifeguard went way ahead of everyone. The river was crowded with college kids (some were clearly drunk), locals, and visitors. There was no float plan. Water clarity is an issue ... can't really see clearly past 3 ft.

 

These are the problems that we don't think that we can accomplish:

 

"Qualified Supervision

All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each ten people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older. All supervisors must complete BSA Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training, and rescue training for the type of watercraft to be used in the activity, and at least one must be certified in CPR. It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently certified as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conduct of all activity afloat."

 

When the boys are split up, there is no way we can maintain a constant eye on them. Solution get a lot more help (reality ... fat chance). The river where they want to go is classified as a Class 2 rapid (granted in some areas, but once the group hit those one or two spots ... chances of group or buddies stay together are hard).

 

"Physical Fitness" - no problems ... we keep are fairly updated forms.

 

"Swimming Ability"

Last year, our SM allowed that trip to happen without testing everyone and for those who tested, he passed some of the marginal ones as "swimmers!" This year, we know exactly who is capable of what.

 

"Personal Flotation Equipment" - no problems ... we can mandate it.

 

"Buddy System

All activity afloat must adhere to the principles of the buddy system. The buddy system assures that for every person involved in aquatics activity, at least one other person is always aware of his or her situation and prepared to lend assistance immediately when needed. Not only does every individual have a buddy, but every craft should have a "buddy boat" when on the water."

 

Our main concerns ... as pointed out previously.

 

"Skill Proficiency

All persons participating in activity afloat must be trained and experienced in watercraft handling skills, safety, and emergency procedures.

For unit activity on white water, all participants must complete special training by a BSA Aquatics Instructor or qualified whitewater specialist.

Powerboat operators must be able to meet requirements for the Motorboating merit badge or equivalent.

Except for whitewater and powerboat operation as noted above, either a minimum of three hours' training and supervised practice or meeting requirements for "basic handling tests" is required for all float trips or open-water excursions using unpowered craft.

Motorized personal watercraft, such as the Jet Ski? and SeaDoo?, are not authorized for use in Scouting aquatics, and their use should not be permitted in or near BSA program areas.

For Cub Scouts: Canoeing, rowboating, and rafting for Cub Scouts (including Webelos Scouts) is to be limited to council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. Prior to recreational canoeing, Cub Scouts are to be instructed in basic handling skills and safety practices."

 

Major concerns ... if we were to allow this tubing trip, then an emergency plan will have to be developed, communicated, and trained the boys on it. Something that we are not that experienced ... yet.

 

"Planning

Float Plan. Know exactly where the unit will put in, where the unit will pull out, and precisely what course will be followed. Determine all stopover points in advance. Estimate travel time with ample margins to avoid traveling under time pressures. Obtain accurate and current maps and information on the waterway to be traveled, and discuss the course with others who have made the trip under similar seasonal conditions. (Preferably, an adult member of the group should run the course before the unit trip.)

Local Rules. Determine which state and local laws or regulations are applicable. If private property is to be used or crossed, obtain written permission from the owners. All such rules must be strictly observed.

Notification. The float plan must be filed with the parents of participants and a member of the unit committee. For any activity using canoes on running water, the float plan must be filed with the local council service center. Notify appropriate authorities, such as Coast Guard, state police, or park personnel, when their jurisdiction is involved. When the unit returns from this activity, persons given the float plan should be so advised.

Weather. Check the weather forecast just before setting out, know and understand the seasonal weather pattern for the region, and keep an alert "weather eye." Imminent rough weather should bring all ashore immediately.

Contingencies. Planning must anticipate possible emergencies or other circumstances that could force a change in the original plan. Identify and consider all such circumstances in advance so that appropriate contingency plans can be developed.

For Cub Scouts: Cub Scout canoeing and rafting does not include "trips" or "expeditions" and is not to be conducted on running water (i.e., rivers or streams); therefore, some procedures are inapplicable. Suitable weather requires clear skies, no appreciable wind, and warm air and water."

 

Major concerns, but it is do-able.

 

"Equipment" - no concerns

 

"Discipline

All participants should know, understand, and respect the rules and procedures for safe unit activity afloat. The applicable rules should be presented and learned prior to the outing, and should be reviewed for all participants at the water?s edge just before the activity begins. When Scouts know and understand the reasons for the rules, they will observe them. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with the fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judgment, keep the fun from being interrupted by tragedy.. "

 

Major problems - some of our older boys are independent and would like to remain as such. Their fathers support this since they are part of the previous leadership corp. These are the boys who would disregard safety, rules, and advices. For example, we went on a backpacking trip. The slowest person sets the pace ... not for these boys. On the same trip, the troop decided to venture into the cave. They took off ahead and we later found out that they came off the steep side of the mountain. Yes, their fathers were with them and allowed it (or rather lost them in the cave). The problem is that they tend to horse around and set the examples that the younger boys (which make up about 2/3 of the troop) want to follow. This is a problem.

 

 

One other problem that is not part of G2SS ... the drunks on the river. Last year ... as I busily keeping an eye everyboy ... I can't help but to hear the obscenities that came out of these kids mouths. Secondly, the racist remarks that came out of one group really bothered me. Some of the boys that I was with thought it was funny, but I didn't!

 

scoutldr ... I try to point out the various G2SS guidelines to the adults as well as the junior leaders. Together, we try to interpret these guidelines. You are correct. Had the adult leaders and the junior leaders address all of the G2SS concerns, then there wouldn't even be a question.

 

For me, it's not the problem of losing my house or livelyhood, because, as I understand it if I follow everything that BSA prescribed, then BSA will support me (a fact that I'm not 100% relying on). More importantly, it's losing a boy or having him seriously injured and having to face his parents with the news!

 

Thanks.

 

1Hour(This message has been edited by OneHour)

[Bob White 20]

I think the unit is trying to build a dollhouse using plans for a skyscraper. This is just a float trip in innertubes on a gentle current right? I think we can pretty well pass on the need for three hours of operational instructions.

 

Your problem seems to be the inability of the unit leader or event leader to express the importance of the buddy system and pfds. You should absolutely not go on this trip, or any other for that matter, until the leadership has the ability to lead and the scouts have the ability to understand and obey safety rules.

 

Planning also seems to be a problem in the unit. If two adults or a lifeguard and buddy go over the falls first. They set a point for the others to gather at, until the group has reformed, or, spotters can be set up along the course to track group as they pass.

 

But the scouts have no right to dislike any leader when they themselves ignore their own safety and the safety of others by refusing to follow the safety policies for an event.

 

So OneHour take comfort in the fact that you have not denied anyone their fun, by refusing to display the level of responsibility needed to do the activity they have ruined it for themselves and have only themselves to blame.

 

Good Luck,

BW

 

 

 

 

[OneHour 11]

"I think the unit is trying to build a dollhouse using plans for a skyscraper. This is just a float trip in innertubes on a gentle current right? I think we can pretty well pass on the need for three hours of operational instructions."

 

Not really. The plan is the same no matter how you look at it. Yes, the 3 hours of operational instructions are not needed; however, float plan and emergency plan are still required. For the most part, it will be gentle current.

 

"Your problem seems to be the inability of the unit leader or event leader to express the importance of the buddy system and pfds."

 

It's not the inability of our current leaders to express the importance of the buddy system and pfds, but it's living down the years of side-stepping and blantant disregard of the safety guidelines by previous adult leaders.

 

"You should absolutely not go on this trip, or any other for that matter, until the leadership has the ability to lead and the scouts have the ability to understand and obey safety rules."

 

Exactly what I am trying to do ... to have a sensible discussion with the scouts about safety and the rules with regards them.

 

"Planning also seems to be a problem in the unit. If two adults or a lifeguard and buddy go over the falls first. They set a point for the others to gather at, until the group has reformed, or, spotters can be set up along the course to track group as they pass."

 

Great suggestion and yes, planning is not this troop forte'.

 

"So OneHour take comfort in the fact that you have not denied anyone their fun, by refusing to display the level of responsibility needed to do the activity they have ruined it for themselves and have only themselves to blame."

 

I am trying. It's difficult to talk to a 13 years old SPL (that's another issue) who cries as he talks to you because it has been bothering him and he felt very strongly about it. I am a sucker for tears especially coming from a kid, but I am holding steady on my conviction. I have told him to talk to his staff to see if they can come up with the plans that would satisfy me and the adult leaders that address our various concerns, then and only then we will go.

 

Thanks,

 

1Hour

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

OK One-hour How about this. Meet only with the PLC. Give them the G2SS section covering the water activities and a float trip planner. Explain in an overview how to tell required policies from suggested practices. Then tell the the troop wants do do this activty and will, just as soon as they make a plan that covers all the required policies.

 

Allow them to ask questions of you at any time, but that their plan must satisfy all safety and planning requirements.

 

All plans need to come from the scouts anyway, this insures the troop is ding activities the boys want rather than activities the adults want.

 

Follow the same procedure for all activities. Give the boy leaders the resources and have them make a workable plan...no plan...no activity. Never withhold your support, information or encouragement, but never go unless the boys make a viable plan.

 

 

[LPC_Thumper 10]

In my troop, we buy two copies of the G2SS annually. One goes in the SM book, the other goes in the SPL book (you have notebooks for these important leaders right?) The PLC knows that the only way to get blown out of the water is not meet the requirements in G2SS. We may tell them that we need some more time to pull off an event (like taking them to Philmont, Northern Tier, Sea Base which we have done from CALIFORNIA), but we won't shoot down their plans UNLESS the G2SS does. If they make plans that are in conflict with G2SS, the SM merely points out to them why National doesn't want them to do it.

 

We also help them remember that Rule #1 of Troop 26 is "Stay off the front page of The Trib (local paper)". We do all we can to get their pictures on the community pages often, but NOTHING on the front page. It covers all our problems. Hope this helps!

[Eagledad 2779]

Hi All

 

>>OK One-hour How about this. Meet only with the PLC. Give them the G2SS section covering the water activities and a float trip planner. Explain in an overview how to tell required policies from suggested practices. Then tell the the troop wants do do this activty and will, just as soon as they make a plan that covers all the required policies.

[firstpusk 10]

This is an excellent advancement opportunity also. Camping merit badge requirement 9. b. requires that the scout help plan and conduct two of five activites. One of them is a float plan for a three hour float. We are having several scouts plan our upcoming canoeing trip on the Bois Brule River. Available to them are the G2SS, maps, guidebooks and the MB badge books for canoeing and whitewater.

 

They not only want to do it. They are excited about it. There is nothing wrong with the PLC "subcontracting" such work to a group of scouts. They simply have to make sure the final product is up to snuff.

 

I do think that teaching the boys (and adults) to "gunwale up" in an eddy below a set of rapids is absolutely critical. PFDs must also be required at all times. These are practices I have worked hard to instill on everyone canoeing with us. It was not always that way. My first trip with my son's new troop did not seem concerned about the requirements for G2SS. They did not think it was possible to fulfill the whitewater requirements. Since then, I have gotten a good deal of whitewater training including river rescue from my local American Canoe Association affiliate. We are now supervising safe, fun trips on class 2 rapids each year for the boys.

 

I canoed a section of the St. Croix a month ago. Just downstream a deputy sheriff drowned while tubing. The accident was avoidable. He became trapped by a cooler he had tied to his leg. The cooler caught on some branches and it cost him his life. He should have known better. Had someone been watching out for him and been properly prepared, he would likely be alive today.

[Rooster7 11]

Just as an aside...as I understand it, the G2SS sets the minimum requirements for safety. So, for example, if the adult leader in charge does not feel its safe to do a water activity for any reason (i.e., too many drunk college kids in the water), then he has a right and a responsibility to cancel or veto the activity. I think this too should be addressed in your PLC meeting. The boys need to make sure all safety issues are addressed, not just the minimum requirements spelled out in the G2SS.

[firstpusk 10]

Most of my canoeing is done with the scouts or my local paddling club. We note the condition of those with whom we share the river. We avoid those that either through lack of skill, poor prior planning or substance abuse endanger themselves and others.

 

We generally can move down the river faster because of better skills and lack of impairment. If we can't, we gunwale up in an eddy and wait for them to clear. It is situations like these that bring home the need for good discipline within the crew. Planning how to deal with rescue is critically important. Those that are not trained should be waiting in an eddy accounted for by designated individuals. The support boats have enough to worry about already.