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Scouter_Chris

Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

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13 hours ago, RichardB said:

Webelos may camp as a den outside the Pack structure.    If the Scouts BSA Camporee is being run / conducted as designed, it would not be age appropriate for Cubs to do anything but observe.  Again, this is not a change.     

Actually they did indeed change the policy back to the pre-2010 policy. I vivdly remember the restriction not being listed in BSA literature as my oldest had just become a Webelos and could camp with troops at camporee. Since the policy was removed, circa 2011, district and council camporees have had Webelos camping. Last year when the policy was reinstated council/district decided to ignore the change since the rule change came out AFTER camporee info came out and some Webelos had paid for the event. This year, we are reluctantly complying and not allowing Webelos to camp. And as a result one Troop is no attending district camporee in order to camp with their Webelos in protest of the policy change.

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1 hour ago, yknot said:

Why is anyone making a deal over this? Just do more one night camp outs if you feel your wings are clipped.  Why do people have such a hard time understanding that scouting is not the same as what you do personally. You are part of an organization that has liability issues to consider and is in the public eye. What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts.
 

Because National is constantly changing rules. Webelos can not camp at camporee, then they can, now they can't again. Tigers can shoot BB Guns, then they cannot, now they can again. And I can go on.

In my neck of the woods, council cub events are 3 days, 2 nites except resident camp. If packs do their own, they model what is done at the council level: full weekend overniters.

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1 hour ago, yknot said:

What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts

That's fine, but how many potential members are walking away as a result?   I don't know the answer but it's >0.

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It's challenging enough to get everyone's schedule lined up to go camping.  On that rare occasion when the planets/work schedules/school commitments align, we may as well camp for 2 nights.  At least that used to be the thought process.

Plus there is something more substantial about camping for 2 nights versus 1. 

These points aside, I think the larger issue is that National either cannot or will not communicate clearly, be it with the field or within its own headquarters.  And when it comes to publishing coherent, consistent policy, they are marginal at best.

Edited by desertrat77
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On 10/11/2019 at 8:08 PM, yknot said:

Why is anyone making a deal over this? Just do more one night camp outs if you feel your wings are clipped.  Why do people have such a hard time understanding that scouting is not the same as what you do personally. You are part of an organization that has liability issues to consider and is in the public eye. What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts.
 

This is a big deal because it directly contributes to weaker Cub Scout programming.  

I served in a pack where 80% of our camping trips were two nights.  Occasionally we'd have a one nighter for some reason or another, but it was rare.  The reason to have a two night camping trip is that it allows for a single, full day at camp.  A Cub Scout wakes up at the camp, get's ready at the camp, has breakfast at the camp, does a day of activities, and so on.  When you turn that into a single overnighter, then it decreases the time available for the Scout to grow more comfortable in the outdoors.  This is why council cuborees do just this.

In my experience, an active Cub Scout program is a great way to prepare Scouts, parents, and potential leaders for an active Scouts BSA program.  We had numerous parents who had never camped join us when their sons were Tigers.  We'd find them a tent, they'd scare up some sleeping bags, and away we'd go.  In the process, the parents also learned a lot about camping.  So, by the time their son got to Scouts BSA they'd be very comfortable outdoors.

It also challenged us as a pack to know how to prepare for a big trip.  We'd had gear, plenty of cooking equipment, we knew how to run an all day program.  We've been around for enough years that this was built up over time.  So, when that two night camping trip came up in the fall, you can rest assured that it was very well planned and executed.  In fact our Cub leaders often go on to be BALOO trainers themselves because they learn how to run a well oiled Cub Scout camping trip.

Maybe the BSA is really worried about Cub Scout packs who don't know how to run a two night trip.  If so, then apply the correct remedy.  Have "BALOO 2" or have some kind of district camper certify the unit.  It's not really a hard problem to solve here. 

Frankly - the BSA needs to stop responding to all of this stuff by dumbing down the program.  Isn't that the lesson of the Improved Scouting Program of the 70s?  

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I just came home from a two night Pack overnighter at the council camp.  We were in cabins.  Council will tell us if this is not approved, but since we are at a council camp, I am sure that these things are A-OK.   We want our council camp facilities to be used for Scouts, they are set up very well for Cubs and the kids have a great time. 

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@Eagle94-A1 was no change in policy.   More effective communication would be my analysis. 

Et al, do you really want to have a definition of overnight in Pack Overnighters?   Asking for a friend.  Just saying, on one hand, this thread says national changes the rules,  on the other a call for more definition.    Which is it?

RichardB

 

Edited by RichardB

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29 minutes ago, RichardB said:

@Eagle94-A1 was no change in policy.   More effective communication would be my analysis. 

Et al, do you really want to have a definition of overnight in Pack Overnighters?   Asking for a friend.  Just saying, on one hand, this thread says national changes the rules,  on the other a call for more definition.    Which is it?

RichardB

 

Thanks @RichardB

I think many are on edge these days.  As I'm sure you know, there is a lot of concern about erosion of program.

I'm reaidng between the lines here and am guessing we overreacted to the term "overnighter".  If "overnighter" refers to the of sleeping overnight and doesn't mean that it's  single overnight - great.

Personally - I don't think we need more definition, I'd just remove the term overnighter.  Camping implies sleeping overnight in the woods.  "overnighter" suggests one night.  I'd offer the terms that make the most sense to volunteers are:

  • .den camping
  • pack camping
  • council organized camping

Now that I read this again, I realize that there is an effort to overnghter to distinguish from day camps.  I don't think it's needed.  If one said "pack camping", I think we all understand that implies spending the night.

Edited by ParkMan
accidentally hit enter too soon. add message content

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16 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Now that I read this again, I realize that there is an effort to overnghter to distinguish from day camps.  I don't think it's needed.  If one said "pack camping", I think we all understand that implies spending the night.

There are other things that can be "overnighters" but that I don't consider to be camping.

My son's pack did some "overnighters" like a night in the Zoo, or a sleep aboard on the USS Lexington.  These are fun things for the boys to do, but they're not in the woods, don't involve setting up tents, don't involve cooking their meals, and similar things that really define "camping".

Just saying...

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21 hours ago, RichardB said:

@Eagle94-A1 was no change in policy.   More effective communication would be my analysis. 

Et al, do you really want to have a definition of overnight in Pack Overnighters?   Asking for a friend.  Just saying, on one hand, this thread says national changes the rules,  on the other a call for more definition.    Which is it?

RichardB

 

I for one would very much like the G2SS be a one-pager that says, use common sense, talk to your parents, follow the oath and law.  But, it doesn't.  It's however many hundred pages with inclusions by reference, appendicies, and pictures with circles and arrows.  Since that's what we have to work with, we'd like them to be clear and consistent.  Here on this board you have what I'm going to assume is an honest question asked by a typical scouter.  The responses to that question are showing some confusion with the wording of the various documents and web pages and local practices.  Nobody wants more documentation, but a simple answer would be awful nice.  

Does overnighter mean just one night?  

It's a yes or no question.  So, how bout you add some value and answer it.

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9 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I for one would very much like the G2SS be a one-pager that says, use common sense, talk to your parents, follow the oath and law.  But, it doesn't.  It's however many hundred pages with inclusions by reference, appendicies, and pictures with circles and arrows.  Since that's what we have to work with, we'd like them to be clear and consistent.  Here on this board you have what I'm going to assume is an honest question asked by a typical scouter.  The responses to that question are showing some confusion with the wording of the various documents and web pages and local practices.  Nobody wants more documentation, but a simple answer would be awful nice.  

Does overnighter mean just one night?  

It's a yes or no question.  So, how bout you add some value and answer it.

Didn't you mean - 

Twenty-seven 8-by-10 color glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was, to be used as a Guide to Safe Scouting – even including some aerial photography.

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@RichardB, there's two ways to take your offer of defining "overnight."

1.  Humor.

2.  Acknowledgement that G2SS is vague enough to allow packs some leeway, and formally defining "overnight" would close the door on whatever freedom presently exists.

Which is it?

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23 hours ago, RichardB said:

@Eagle94-A1 was no change in policy.   More effective communication would be my analysis. 

Et al, do you really want to have a definition of overnight in Pack Overnighters?   Asking for a friend.  Just saying, on one hand, this thread says national changes the rules,  on the other a call for more definition.    Which is it?

RichardB

Et. al, You've heard me state my Rule #1: Don't ask for a rule. You'll get one. That holds here!

What I feel is useful is understanding. The incident reviews constitute a great step in this direction. What are some of the issues with Cubs and more than one consecutive overnight campout? Resident camps may have something to offer in terms of risks observed after night 2 vs. night 1. Maybe the Risk Management talked to some psychologists and there's something different when a pack spends time in the woods vs. a couple of extended families. Maybe, historically,  BSA has wanted councils to own consecutive overnights for cubs.

Disambiguation only let's people know if they are compliant, background gives them the ability to improve their judgement.

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@qwazse, excellent points all.  I have one "however"--when it comes to risk management and to potential legal/civil action, I think clear cut rules are vital, whether we agree with said rules or not.  @RichardB alluded to this his previous post, " Please do not put yourself or youth at risk."

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On 10/10/2019 at 4:01 PM, malraux said:

Found where it came from: https://www.scouting.org/programs/cub-scouts/activities/cub-scout-camping/

“Packs may not conduct campouts longer then overnight. “


that said, I’m not sure how binding those pages are. I know the pages on the ranks gets interpreted incorrectly about how the webelos program works. 

Yes, that's where the DE said she saw it. Good job tracking it down.

Edited by Scouter_Chris

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