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Scouter_Chris

Limit for Cub Scout nights of camping

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2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Thank them very much for their input and then camp two nights.

There's no such rule.

 

There's no such difference defined anywhere.  "family" and "pack" are simply common terms.  The only rules that apply are the Cub Scout camping rules where there are no such rules on duration.

Ok - sorry, I posted too quickly as I was so sure this was the sort of bad rumor that floats around and is simply not true.  

My son's pack always had two night pack campouts.  We attended cuborees that were two nights as well.  Two night campouts in Cub Scouts are so common around here to the point where one night cub scout camping is the exception.

I cannot fathom what this section in the G2SS is even attempting to say.  That Lions through Bears should only camp one night at a time?  Is the BSA crazy?  

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1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

Is the BSA crazy?  

You tell me.

BSA decided to reinstate a policy limiting Webelos to visiting camporees. My council promoted Webelos camping with troops at camporees while they were allowed. And i am told some councils are ignoring this rule, and still allow Webelos to camp at camporees because it is an effective recruiting tool.

BSA has decide to up the registration fee AFTER Round Up season started. They did this before, and caused membership numbers to drop in my area, and didn't learn from the mistake. AND to make it worse, won't tell us what the price will be at the most 7 days before rechartering with the new cost will go into effect.

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2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

You tell me.

BSA decided to reinstate a policy limiting Webelos to visiting camporees. My council promoted Webelos camping with troops at camporees while they were allowed. And i am told some councils are ignoring this rule, and still allow Webelos to camp at camporees because it is an effective recruiting tool.

BSA has decide to up the registration fee AFTER Round Up season started. They did this before, and caused membership numbers to drop in my area, and didn't learn from the mistake. AND to make it worse, won't tell us what the price will be at the most 7 days before rechartering with the new cost will go into effect.

Gotta admit - I'm usually the one sticking up for National too.  Yeah - pretty sad when I'm asking that question.  I missed that policy change on Webelos and camporees - ugh.

Again - I respect what the professionals are being asked to do.  But, really - one night Cub Scout campouts?  

But really - ponder the thought...

Quote

The Boy Scouts of America has decided that Scouts aged 5 to 9 should only go camping one night at a time.

 

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To the best of my knowledge there has been no policy change related to Cub camping.   Cub "overnight" camping by program design is limited to Council Organized Family Camps OR Pack Overnighters (At Council appraised and designated locations).    

BALOO training covers this.    There is a requirement for BALOO trained leaders on Cub campouts.   Have you been to BALOO?  Did the course follow the syllabus?  

Webelos may camp as a den outside the Pack structure.    If the Scouts BSA Camporee is being run / conducted as designed, it would not be age appropriate for Cubs to do anything but observe.  Again, this is not a change.     

Source:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/ - which has been previously linked but you all might wish to review again.   

Please do not put yourself or youth at risk.   

RichardB

 

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I never camped as a cub. Only took my boys to resident cub camp. Camped with mine (and perhaps one other) family for a week every year. Although I supported a Cubmaster who would take the trouble to have a family camping weekend, for me that was not central. So, I think I'm pretty neutral. If BSA says don't camp as a pack for two nights in a row without council approval, suck it up. It ain't killing your program. But, once again, here's where Risk Management's mumbo-jumbo goes off the rails ...

34 minutes ago, RichardB said:

... Please do not put yourself or youth at risk.   ...

Name the risks. What is the relative risk to a Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelo whose pack does two consecutive nights versus one? Is it

  • 1.01 times as many deaths?
  • 1.2 times as many trips to the hospital?
  • 3 times as many assaults?
  • 10 times the damage to public property?
  • 2.4 times as many bug juice overdoses?

How much bad stuff does BSA think it's preventing by restricting this?

How much litigation does BSA think councils have been spared?

What were the palpable events (surely there wasn't just one) that drove the rule?

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Every time National tightens the rules on camping, they make it easier for non-camping units to stay home and more difficult for camping units to actually camp.

And if you aren't in the great outdoors, you really aren't scouting.

Edited by desertrat77
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2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

 So, I think I'm pretty neutral. If BSA says don't camp as a pack for two nights in a row without council approval, suck it up. It ain't killing your program.  

Well, it might not be killing your pack's program, since evidently you had a lame pack that didn't even bother to camp. (Sorry, gotta call a spade a spade, after all, a scout IS trustworthy).

My son's pack camped twice per year, so when the boys bridged to a scout troop, they were prepared to get right into an active, productive outdoor program.  Putting restrictions on that kind of quality program *IS* a bad thing and if that's what BSA wants, they RICHLY deserve any and all criticism that comes their way.

 

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1 minute ago, mrkstvns said:

Well, it might not be killing your pack's program, since evidently you had a lame pack that didn't even bother to camp. (Sorry, gotta call a spade a spade, after all, a scout IS trustworthy).

My son's pack camped twice per year, so when the boys bridged to a scout troop, they were prepared to get right into an active, productive outdoor program.  Putting restrictions on that kind of quality program *IS* a bad thing and if that's what BSA wants, they RICHLY deserve any and all criticism that comes their way. 

Don't mistake what I'm saying. The scouts who came with my boys to resident camp had a blast. The rain had a blast following me there, and the ensuing mud made it so much better for the boys. And the Cubmaster who arranged an overnight for our scouts did us a solid. But if he didn't, we could have just as well spent the day at the sewage plant and had a grand time. What really prepared my scouts to camp with the troop were the many weekend invites they had as Webelos to camp with different troops in the fall, winter, and spring for two years.

And me? Before joining a troop, I did overnights with my church -- lots of them from age 8 forward. We hiked historic trails and had a grand time. I remember vividly one where an older scout took the time to teach me how to connect my bat with a ball. Those church camps got and my buddies used to packing a sleeping bag and our stuff neatly. They sometimes borrowed the troop's tents so that we could experience nights under canvas. Me and my buddies went from zero to sixty the day we joined the troop. Our patrol mates made sure we were comfortable, and taught us what we didn't know.

My Pack provided plenty of other opportunities -- fun ones that just don't happen anymore. Our Webelos DL taught us more practical skills ... like how to safely shoot a .38 special. Okay, there were other ones, but that's one I remember. But because he wasn't worrying about tents and check-ins and all the stuff that a troop makes PL's do, he had time to pack more fun into the program than we really deserved to have. And membership was greater in those days when BSA relegated camping to Boy Scouts.

So, I get that since the 80's these Pack overnights have become a special exercise for leaders. But, I also don't see it doing a lot for the organization as a whole. It's something you want to do and cherish, fine. But, is an 18 year old really gonna say "Gee, my cub experience was ruined because my Pack could only camp out Saturday night."?

Thus, my ambivalence toward long weekends for Cubs. I'm not stumping for it. But I also have no reason to stump against it until someone tells me what "risk" these little gompers are being subjected to.

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I see 2 HUGE flaws with their way of thinking on this one....

My pack’s CO (we have to follow safe church and BSA YPT) requires if cubs are camping a parent/guardian attends while cub is on campout regardless of rank and we have had NO problems. When they cross to the Troop the kids are excited to finally camp without a parent present 😂
 

first flaw - site rental at the council run camps in our state - you book for the weekend. And they are minimum hour drive away. Following this rule of national councils should  reduce the rate we pay so we only pay for the time in camp it will be a cold day in hades before that will ever happen.  We have to rent the site and pay a per person surcharge ($3).  

second flaw - what happens on a pack family campout when a parent comes with 2 siblings  (Tiger and Bear or Above). “Sorry but little Joey has to go home after one night but little Johnny can stay?”  How is that family friendly BSA?    
 

Kids here know that our pack is Year round outdoors activity related. We’ve had more kids join because of this and a few quit because they don’t like the outdoor activities much.   I held my fist Lion/Tiger den meeting this week every child was asked what was the one thing they wanted to do before the Blue & Gold awards ceremony In spring as a Cub Scout? #1 Sleep in the woods in a tent with a fire, #2 catch lots of fish (we have a large state forest in town - good fishing). We have den goals posters every year the kids make up...bears want to earn whittling chip and get a knife and camp. 

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My Council doesn't charge for units to camp at Council camps, unless you need equipment from the quartermaster barn.   Not yet, anyway.

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And at our troops we wonder why so many adults have never camped after having been cub leaders for 5 years. 

The best way to mitigate risk is through training and experience, NOT prohibition. Sadly the latter is the culture promoted at HQ.

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10 hours ago, RichardB said:

To the best of my knowledge there has been no policy change related to Cub camping.   Cub "overnight" camping by program design is limited to Council Organized Family Camps OR Pack Overnighters (At Council appraised and designated locations).    

BALOO training covers this.    There is a requirement for BALOO trained leaders on Cub campouts.   Have you been to BALOO?  Did the course follow the syllabus?  

Webelos may camp as a den outside the Pack structure.    If the Scouts BSA Camporee is being run / conducted as designed, it would not be age appropriate for Cubs to do anything but observe.  Again, this is not a change.     

Source:   https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/ - which has been previously linked but you all might wish to review again.   

Please do not put yourself or youth at risk.   

RichardB

 

@RichardB  Are pack overnighters limited to one night at a time (example: Saturday-Sunday)?  Or can they be two nights (Friday-Sunday)?

This is where people are confused.

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Why is anyone making a deal over this? Just do more one night camp outs if you feel your wings are clipped.  Why do people have such a hard time understanding that scouting is not the same as what you do personally. You are part of an organization that has liability issues to consider and is in the public eye. What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts.
 

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19 minutes ago, yknot said:

Why is anyone making a deal over this? Just do more one night camp outs if you feel your wings are clipped.  Why do people have such a hard time understanding that scouting is not the same as what you do personally. You are part of an organization that has liability issues to consider and is in the public eye. What you do personally you cannot do while camping with scouts.
 

Perhaps even sequentially back to back overnight events…

near as I can tell, the bsa National has made no such ruling that only 1 night at a time is allowed, and if they do want that to be the rule, they should make it explicit. 

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