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I was mistaken.  Doesn't make it not a stupid rule.  I would hate to have had to plan my project around as many people as I did plus getting two, over 21, registered adults there the entire time as well.  

What is dumb would be that my project was completed over about 8 days of work.  Who decides which of those days were activities and which weren't? Only 2 had other scouts there.  Man, now I feel like an old man shaking my fist at a cloud...

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I am sure that the rule is all about insurance and risk mitigation.  If someone is helping a Scout on an Eagle service project and gets hurt, then they could sue the BSA.  It doesn't matter if the person who gets hurt is a member of the BSA or not.

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@mds3dRemember you signed the Eagle Workbook saying you had read the entire workbook which includes following the above paragraph 9.0.2.14 

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37 minutes ago, mds3d said:

I was mistaken.  Doesn't make it not a stupid rule.  I would hate to have had to plan my project around as many people as I did plus getting two, over 21, registered adults there the entire time as well.  

What is dumb would be that my project was completed over about 8 days of work.  Who decides which of those days were activities and which weren't? Only 2 had other scouts there.  Man, now I feel like an old man shaking my fist at a cloud...

I'd encourage you to look at it from the other side.  

The BSA has worked very hard to establish itself as an organization that takes youth protection very seriously at all times.  That means we have to embrace youth protection rules even when it's inconvenient.  Yes, I grant that having to provide two deep registered adult leadership for Eagle projects is difficult, but protecting youth is more important.  

Edited by ParkMan
clarified a thought

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Back on topic...I saw a facebook post from a SE which points out the glaring disconnects between the National and Council organizations.  He says he has to wait by the phone on the 23rd just like everyone else.   All SE's have a weekly conference call with National every sunday.  For the over 250 SEs which are the direct contacts of the 2M BSA customers to have zero idea what is going to happen to their operations is ridiculous if true.  If they haven't done their own risk analysis on the impacts to their operations shame on them.  They have to know each dollar increase, especially if off the rails, which be one less dollar for them and likely a loss of membership and units.   They also pay a $1000 Charter fee  to the BSA, unless you turn your paperwork in on time (silly) will that also be increased?

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Ridiculous. Another glaring disconnect is that the statement from National says they are setting up a donor funded BSA registration assistance fund. Nothing has been issued to date on a) whether the fund will in fact exist, b) if it does, how it will be accessed and what kind of process will be required, and c) since nothing BSA does at a process level is speedy, how this process can be accommodated within the current rechartering deadline. I don't fault National for struggling some with challenges. I fault them for being so utterly unprepared despite the fact that lawsuits, liability insurance issues, and registration fees are nothing new. 

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51 minutes ago, PACAN said:

@mds3dRemember you signed the Eagle Workbook saying you had read the entire workbook which includes following the above paragraph 9.0.2.14 

I am pretty sure the workbook I signed did not have that section.  I feel like 2002 (when I started my project) was pretty different. 

 

54 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'd encourage you to look at it from the other side.  

The BSA has worked very hard to establish itself as an organization that takes youth protection very seriously at all times.  That means we have to embrace youth protection rules even when it's inconvenient.  Yes, I grant that having to provide two deep registered adult leadership for Eagle projects is difficult, but protecting youth is more important.  

 I understand that youth protection is extremely important.  I just think that service does not have to scouting activity.  The eagle project should be no different.  If it is a scouting activity (troop supported and sanctioned) then it should follow all the rules, but my project would have been impossible with this rule. 

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49 minutes ago, yknot said:

I fault them for being so utterly unprepared despite the fact that lawsuits, liability insurance issues, and registration fees are nothing new. 

This makes the entire organization, including volunteers, look unprepared. 

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Most of our competition -- other youth organizations -- generally do not have these kinds of issues.  There is usually a highly functional public interface, things are usually very organized, and the organizational messages and goals are coordinated from the top, wherever it is, down to the local level. I don't have any issue with BSA reexamining fees. It's understood that we have a financial crisis. I do have an issue with the timing and the total lack of contingency planning. Something has really gone off the rails and without some degree of honesty beyond the spin, I'm not sure what's next.

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@mds3d   Letting us know your EP was 2002 would have been good to know.  The Current procedures were started in 2011.

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4 hours ago, mds3d said:

I was mistaken.  Doesn't make it not a stupid rule.  I would hate to have had to plan my project around as many people as I did plus getting two, over 21, registered adults there the entire time as well.  

What is dumb would be that my project was completed over about 8 days of work.  Who decides which of those days were activities and which weren't? Only 2 had other scouts there.  Man, now I feel like an old man shaking my fist at a cloud...

Not admonishing- it does add complexity for sure.  The Eagle candidates we've had since last fall had been fortunate that they had parents who were troop leaders, which made it easy enough to assure they had 1 pretty much accounted for, so only had to "recruit" 1 other adult for everything.  We have one current scout working on their project that doesn't have that luxury, and unfortunately has gone rogue a few days that has been an issue.  His project is for the CO, which hasn't helped him to fly under the radar from us. 

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4 hours ago, mds3d said:

I am pretty sure the workbook I signed did not have that section.  I feel like 2002 (when I started my project) was pretty different. 

 

 I understand that youth protection is extremely important.  I just think that service does not have to scouting activity.  The eagle project should be no different.  If it is a scouting activity (troop supported and sanctioned) then it should follow all the rules, but my project would have been impossible with this rule. 

I agree. On my own project I typically had my parents (non registered) and maybe one or two troop leaders over 21 who were registered. I remember for certain one of my work days I had a friend who was 18 as my second adult. My project was at the township park in full view of a busy road... certainly a public place. 

But overall, the BSA is at least finally making a consistent (if not cumbersome) ruling. It doesn't make sense for YPT requirements to be in place for Troop outings, but not meetings or Eagle Projects. It effectively becomes a donut hole of risk. 

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2 hours ago, yknot said:

Most of our competition -- other youth organizations -- generally do not have these kinds of issues.  There is usually a highly functional public interface, things are usually very organized, and the organizational messages and goals are coordinated from the top, wherever it is, down to the local level. I don't have any issue with BSA reexamining fees. It's understood that we have a financial crisis. I do have an issue with the timing and the total lack of contingency planning. Something has really gone off the rails and without some degree of honesty beyond the spin, I'm not sure what's next.

I think it's very common knowledge that the national organization of the BSA is the midst of 600 sexual abuse lawsuits and active bankruptcy planning.  I'm sure they'd love to manage these as common occurrences, but I can accept that they are not common occurrences.

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They are not common but my point is that they are not unanticipated. BSA spent money lobbying to prevent changes to state laws that would open up the statute of limitations, so they were obviously well aware this could happen. 

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