Troop Pressure for OA

[SteveMM 60]

How appropriate is it for the higher-ups in a troop (in our case, the SM) to pressure Scouts to get their Brotherhood?  At our regular troop meetings, I've heard things like, "We don't want any sash and dash OA members, so if you don't plan be involved, don't do it."  Now, I guess this doesn't sound all that bad, as he's looking for Scouts who will be active OA members.  However, my son and others who are OA members but haven't yet gotten Brotherhood are regularly harassed as well.  At the latest meeting, our troop's OA representative reminded OA members that there was a ordeal weekend coming up.  The SM then jumped in and asked my son if he was going.  My son (who is kind of done with the guy) shrugged, probably knowing that he wasn't.  The SM then looked at his own son, who is our OA rep, and said, "take him out back and beat him until he says yes."  This type of "joke" has led to the son applying his own pressure to my son (verbally, mind you) whenever he gets a chance.

A little background: My son hasn't been the most active OA member, for sure.  He did his ordeal in the fall of 2017.  He balances Scouts with playing soccer, which sometimes doesn't leave time for much else.  He's done his ordeal, one service outing, and attended conclave this year, but he doesn't regularly attend OA meetings.  His soccer schedule is now loosening up a bit.  He has his Eagle CoH coming up next month, and I think his plan is to focus on advancing and being more active in OA after that.

I know the answer to this is to have a talk with the SM, but I'm wondering if this sort of thing is normal.

[Double Eagle 128]

This is not normal.  Being an older arrowman from my ordeal in Sep 1980, been an advisor for three different chapters in three different lodges and a defender of types like this gets me going.  I will try to keep this short.  Arrowmen are all equal in the lodge and brotherhood is done when and where the scout chooses.  Brotherhood just shows their commitment to the order and cheerful service.  As I understand, your son is just not ready to accept brotherhood yet based on other interests, ok.  I wish others had that insight rather than taking on everything half way.  It may be his passive resistance to not go in order to tick off the SM.

The SM statement "jokingly" is a worse issue.  Whether camouflaging his true intention with the "joke" as I see it, or a real joke as a motivator is inappropriate.  That is the bigger issue.  Whether this SM was an inducted youth, or adult may have some play on this.  I've seen inducted adults go hardcore OA on youth.  It is about the youth, not the adult members.  Maybe you have a chapter advisor, graybeard goat or nanny that can set him straight. 

 

[SteveMM 60]

1 minute ago, Double Eagle said:

It may be his passive resistance to not go in order to tick off the SM.

This would not shock me.  My son has said several times to me that he's "done" with our SM for a number of reasons, including what I mentioned in the original post.  He still enjoys Scouting, thankfully, or receiving his Eagle might seem like a convenient way out.  Our ASMs are good and reasonable people, which helps.

[jr56 92]

Some scouts get very active in the OA.  Others not so much.  It is their own personal decision.  With soccer thrown in the mix, sounds like your son has his hands full.  It is his decision to set his own priorities.

[sst3rd 129]

SteveMM,

I can tell you as a formally active ceremonial team advisor for the chapter who still attends chapter meetings, our lodge is pushing "HARD", Brotherhood conversions. This appears to have happened shortly after the OA made it simpler to become a brotherhood member, mainly shortening the time required from having become an Ordeal member. An active adult member who has been a SM, Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner, and now our new Lodge Advisor (he's earned and deserves all of these positions), said since this rule change, the intent of the national  OA, is to push brotherhood conversions. So, scoutmasters have been getting the pressure applied to them from several directions. If I was still a scoutmaster, I would not change how we've applied the OA in our troop. Remember, the last requirement for a scout nominee to the OA, is the scoutmaster's approval. The scoutmaster ought to have an idea of how busy these scouts are, and if this scout can give more to the BSA through the OA. Life is a balance. So, go balance.

sst3rd

[qwazse 4342]

Our SMs and ASMs keep lodge business out of the troop except to encourage the Chapter Representatives to fulfill their obligations. It's up to the CR to relay the vision of the lodge to the youth.

Our adult arrowmen have enough work exhorting adults like me to put some muscle behind he lodge.

@SteveMM, your son needs to be plain spoken (both to the SM and to over-zealous arrowmen) and reply "Sir, I have no intention to persue brotherhood this year."

A shrug is insufficient communication.

Learning to state your position clearly to these types of leaders is a good life lesson.

[Eagledad 2777]

Like Venturing, OA is another scouting program outside of the troop program. SteveMM’s SM is looking at it as a troop program, which adds pressure on the scouts. Pressure and boredom drive scouts away.

Barry

[WAKWIB 107]

On 9/7/2019 at 8:47 AM, Eagledad said:

Like Venturing, OA is another scouting program outside of the troop program. SteveMM’s SM is looking at it as a troop program, which adds pressure on the scouts. Pressure and boredom drive scouts away.

Barry

Yep.  OA is something extra and requires more investment of time.  By all means, I think a Scoutmaster should do his part to facilitate OA elections and try to insure that those elected attend the Ordeal stuff.  Beyond that, it is purely up to the Scout to determine his plan and purpose in the Lodge.

[SteveMM 60]

Since this topic resurfaced, I thought I'd give an update: There was an opportunity for my son to get his Brotherhood last weekend.  Weeks in advance I talked with him, and offered to register him for the lodge weekend as long as he was willing to do the work to prep for Brotherhood.  It was also a big anniversary for our local lodge, which would have made getting Brotherhood that weekend even more special.  After hemming and hawing about it for a while, my son finally said he's just not interested.  I asked why, and he said the pressure from his SM and the SM's son has made him a lot less interested in OA.  That may be an excuse to not want to do the little bit of work that's involved.  However, my son claims that our current SPL is in the exact same situation.

[mrkstvns 486]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:13 AM, SteveMM said:

Since this topic resurfaced, I thought I'd give an update: There was an opportunity for my son to get his Brotherhood last weekend.  Weeks in advance I talked with him, and offered to register him for the lodge weekend as long as he was willing to do the work to prep for Brotherhood.  It was also a big anniversary for our local lodge, which would have made getting Brotherhood that weekend even more special.  After hemming and hawing about it for a while, my son finally said he's just not interested.  I asked why, and he said the pressure from his SM and the SM's son has made him a lot less interested in OA.  That may be an excuse to not want to do the little bit of work that's involved.  However, my son claims that our current SPL is in the exact same situation.

Hmmm.  What do you think?  Maybe it's time for a little chat about whether your son (and you) actually DO see any value in Brotherhood.

It would be a shame to reject it simply as a response to SM pressure. After all, it might be a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

But if you and your son genuinely don't find value in it, then why make him waste his time and effort? Let him make the call though...

[SteveMM 60]

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

Hmmm.  What do you think?  Maybe it's time for a little chat about whether your son (and you) actually DO see any value in Brotherhood.

It would be a shame to reject it simply as a response to SM pressure. After all, it might be a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

But if you and your son genuinely don't find value in it, then why make him waste his time and effort? Let him make the call though...

He's only 15 years old right now.  He earned Eagle back in August and plans to remain very active in Scouts.  I really thought advancing in OA would be his next step, along with leadership in the troop.  But, I think he's decided leadership in the troop is enough, given his soccer commitments.  If the SM will just stop nagging him, I have a feeling he'll come around about Brotherhood eventually.  No one should really be pushing him, especially the SM and his son.  What I've learned on this one is that pushing him will do no good.  The SM tried, and he failed.  The SM's son tried, and he failed.  I even tried it a little, and I failed. 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by SteveMM

[Eagle94-A1 2687]

I think there is a ton of pressure on lodges and chapters to up membership and Brotherhood conversion rates, especially since it now takes only 6 months to earn.  From reports elsewhere, OA is in a downward spiral nationally.

P.S. I think pressuring candidates and Ordeal members will backfire.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Eagle94-A1

[sst3rd 129]

I agree with Eagle94-A1.

Our lodge is pushing hard for Brotherhood conversions. So, our chapter advisor is pushing hard  for Brotherhood conversions. These metrics must be met to meet and qualify for several recognitions and/or certifications. Sorry, I've long forgot their names, but these items are incredibly important to the LEC. The chapter advisor was provided with lists of all eligible Ordeal members for the chapter to get in touch with. We had our most recent Service Weekend (formerly the Ordeal Weekend) right after Labor Day weekend. I don't know if goals were met.

If unit leaders start pushing Brotherhood this way, there will be backlash. It's human nature. I think scoutmasters should chill and be happy with all of their active scouts. This is the scout's decision

 

sst3rd 

[Oldscout448 697]

1 hour ago, sst3rd said:

I agree with Eagle94-A1.

Our lodge is pushing hard for Brotherhood conversions. So, our chapter advisor is pushing hard  for Brotherhood conversions. These metrics must be met to meet and qualify for several recognitions and/or certifications. Sorry, I've long forgot their names, but these items are incredibly important to the LEC.

 

sst3rd 

I never have understood the LEC obsession with getting the various awards and certifications from National.  According to its founder, the OA is supposed to be a thing of the individual and the spirit. 

In any brotherhood ceremony,  I  would rather have 10 arrowmen who have taken the admonition to heart, than 100 who  just mouthed the words because their SM "encouraged" them to go because the chapter/ lodge needed the numbers.

I don't look at anyone wearing an ordeal sash at automatically think "he's not really serious about the Order".  If he is a friend to the younger scouts, if he helps with the hard tasks without being prodded,  if he looks for ways to serve, then he is in truth one of our brotherhood.  The sash is just a sash.

 

[HashTagScouts 435]

Our staff adviser wants the LEC to "increase Brotherhood numbers"- presumably that is coming from the SCF.  I'm with @Oldscout448 that I'd welcome anyone to Brotherhood, if it truly was in their heart as a desire, not just because it fulfills someone else's wish.