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51 minutes ago, David CO said:

They own the unit. 

There is "approve" and then there is approve.  It depends on the activity.  Often "approve" is more hot air than something meaningful.  But I agree, charter org officially does "approve", but that should not limit you too much.

 

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1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

Bzzzt!!!  

Wrong answer!

They hold a charter (i.e., a year-by-year license to operate the BSA program).

The Chartered Organization owns the unit. That's a fact.

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Just now, David CO said:

The Chartered Organization owns the unit. That's a fact.

Mmm...maybe if you twist semantics around, but not in "fact".

A charter is more like a franchise. The whole scouting program (including the concept of the unit) is BSA's, and when an organization charters a unit, it is allowed to use the program for a contractually specified period (one year). To continue operating the unit, the organization must re-charter (and pay a fee) annually.

The program itself is defined in training materials, BSA guides, etc. An organization chat charters a BSA unit is expected to use the materials and to deliver the program they've licensed. 

Although organizations are afforded much latitude in certain areas, they are not free to do anything with "their" unit that they want.   

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35 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

There is "approve" and then there is approve.  It depends on the activity.  Often "approve" is more hot air than something meaningful.  But I agree, charter org officially does "approve", but that should not limit you too much.

 

Right.  The charter organization can set certain guidelines in which the unit must operate, for example, abiding by religious beliefs, not scheduling activities on holy days, etc., but they can't change things that are core to the BSA program.  For example, they can't re-write a merit badge or do away with boards of review.   When a family puts their kid in a scout troop, they have a right to expect that SCOUTING is what will be delivered. 

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13 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

Right.  The charter organization can set certain guidelines in which the unit must operate, for example, abiding by religious beliefs, not scheduling activities on holy days, etc., but they can't change things that are core to the BSA program.  For example, they can't re-write a merit badge or do away with boards of review.   When a family puts their kid in a scout troop, they have a right to expect that SCOUTING is what will be delivered. 

And this, among other things, is explicit in the Chartering Agreement.

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We've hashed this out before.

This is largely a theoretical argument - but a CO does indeed own the unit.  The resources of the unit belongs to the CO.  The CO enters into an agreement with the BSA to utilize the program of the BSA for the operation of that unit.

The CO can set whatever rules it wants.  At somepoint, the members of the unit may decide - "hey, this isn't for me" and leave.  The members may even balk and tell the CO "no, I'm not doing thiat".  Similarly, the CO can set rules that change or superceed the rules of the BSA.  In that case, the recourse of the BSA is to revoke the charter.

Again - this is all thoretical - feels kinda like I'm in a civics class.

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It's a little more complicated than ownership.

In exchange for space for meetings and storing supplies, the unit proudly represents its CO as it delivers the promise of scouting to youth in the community.

If the unit folds, the materials it has acquired are retained by the CO for the purposes of starting another scout unit in the future.

Without good communication about each other's plans, aspirations, and limitations,I honestly can't see how a charter agreement could be fulfilled.

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On 6/13/2019 at 7:24 AM, qwazse said:

When you spin off a different troop, do everyone a favor and meet on a different night from you current unit. 

 

On 6/13/2019 at 7:35 AM, David CO said:

Yes. Meet on a different night.

Also, if the old unit has an established fundraiser activity, choose something different for your fundraiser. 

When starting a new troop, the leaders should make every effort to build a good relationship with the existing unit(s) in town. It is important to remember that your new unit will still be working with the old unit(s) at district and council events. 

Good points. The interested CO has their meetings on the night our current unit meets. So by default we will need to find another night.

By us leaving and starting a new unit in town, our relationship with the current unit will be shattered. At least with the old time leaders, not so much the current SM. The current unit hates council so they rarely ever go to district or council events, while we love council events & feel they are of great benefit to the kids.

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This discussion of CO is great. Thanks. We hope to meet with the new CO next week to discuss moving so the more understanding the better.

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19 hours ago, fred8033 said:

After years in the program, my hindsight is if you do something, do it sooner than later.  We are often in scouts to benefit our sons.  Though the whole experience could be years, the time window for our sons (and daughters) to have a great experience is really short.  Spending too much time battling can destroy our scout's experience. 

Good advice to get out soon.

We have a week of summer camp coming in 3 weeks. I dont think we could swing pulling the new unit together in that time so we have decided to work on it, go to camp & tell them soon after. In addition, they are relying on our leadership for camp otherwise they need to go provo.

19 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Not going to lie, it was hard on all of us. Kids do miss their friends. But they kids have been reinvigorated and are enjoying Scouts now. I wish I would have tansferred sooner.

 

Sorry to hear it was rough for you.

We have the benefit of all 4 new scouts (AOL crossovers) and 1 additional scout moving with us. They are a core group of friends that hang out all the time. Heck they were all at my house last night until 10:30 and had pizza together earlier in the day.

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44 minutes ago, karunamom3 said:

By us leaving and starting a new unit in town, our relationship with the current unit will be shattered. At least with the old time leaders, not so much the current SM. 

This is where an active CO can help. Maybe a friendly lunch between the two IH's could calm things down.

When I started up my unit about 40 years ago, we had some similar feelings from some of the old-timer leaders. They didn't want a competing unit in town. The CO's didn't feel the same way. One CO is unlikely to tell another CO that they can't start their own scout unit. The CO's usually want to get along with each other. This is particularly true if the 2 CO's are churches, since pastors don't usually like to squabble with other pastors.

Anyhow, the 2 IH's had a friendly lunch and worked out an agreement that settled things.  

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/12/2019 at 9:44 AM, karunamom3 said:

The CO? So are units supposed to supply the CO with a calendar for approval?

No, not quite.  The relationship isn't that direct. At least it shouldn't be. 

The CO owns/controls the unit the way one business owns a subsidiary or the way a Board of Directors controls a company.  

While the CO should certainly be aware of the troop's plans and activities, and is able to issue general rules relevant to the organization's beliefs (for example a strict Baptist Church restricting the playing of games with cards during troop events), the CO doesn't have day to day control over the troop.  They wouldn't get formal approval of the calendar of activities and they usually don't get direct input with the scouts on how things are done.  (though in reality any smart CC and SM would listen seriously to any concerns a COR has)  The only "official" methods the COR (and CO) have to directly impact the troop are: Getting rid of any leaders it doesn't find suitable or restricting access to the equipment and gear it allows the troop to use.

Edited by elitts

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Posted (edited)

Now,  in direct contravention of my post on page one, I was just taking the most recent training on "Annual Troop Program Planning for Scouts BSA" and it does explicitly state that the SPL and SM have to submit the annual Program Plan to the Troop Committee for the Committee's review and support and that the Troop Committee has the right to refuse the Program Plan or request revisions if they feel it's unsafe or unwise (for whatever reason).

Edited by elitts
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, elitts said:

The only "official" methods the COR (and CO) have to directly impact the troop are: Getting rid of any leaders it doesn't find suitable or restricting access to the equipment and gear it allows the troop to use.

Those would be the methods of last resort. 

It's sorta like expulsion from school. Expulsion is the last resort. You only expel a student after all else fails, or if the offense is so egregious that no other action will suffice. 

Edited by David CO

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8 hours ago, elitts said:

Now,  in direct contravention of my post on page one, I was just taking the most recent training on "Annual Troop Program Planning for Scouts BSA" and it does explicitly state that the SPL and SM have to submit the annual Program Plan to the Troop Committee for the Committee's review and support and that the Troop Committee has the right to refuse the Program Plan or request revisions if they feel it's unsafe or unwise (for whatever reason).

I have no problem with a committee  review, but in this case it is the CC/COR only (Same person) that wants all calendar events emailed to him alone & he decides yes or no and made it clear that he doesn't need to provide an explanation. It's his decision. Period.

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