Jump to content
Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, FireStone said:

I'd be with you on this if it really was just about credit for past scouting work completed and she would join that inaugural class of Eagles. But my feeling (from what I've read and heard from this scout and her family) is that this may have more to do with her wanting to be "the first". She isn't content with credit for the work. She has specifically asked for the "immediate granting" of the rank of Eagle Scout.

I guess at this point I just prepared to take it at face value - she just wants to be a member of the BSA and participate in the program.  The media spotlight so distorts things that I'm not going to form an opinion of a youth's character by what I see there.

Maybe she's aggressive and wants to advance quickly too - and maybe even be the fist female Eagle.  Even if all that's true, I'm OK by that.  She's got some dreams and the pushes to make them happen.  Not such an awful trait for someone to have.

I get that we want her to go through the same exact process as others - but this is an exceptional point in the history of Scouting.  If she had a valid argument for why she should immediatley be awarded Eagle - I'd listen.  Again - I don't fault her for being ambitious.  I doubt I'd just grant an Eagle except in some kind of really egregious exception (i.e. a youth who did every requirement by the book, but for some reason was prevented from officially being a member).  This is where I think Life is fair.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I get that we want her to go through the same exact process as others - but this is an exceptional point in the history of Scouting. 

Yes, we want her to go through the entire process properly, just like all the other young men, and now women, in Scouting. While it is an exceptional point in Scouting, it is still not a time to reward those who have violated BSA policy.

15 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

If she had a valid argument for why she should immediatley be awarded Eagle - I'd listen.  Again - I don't fault her for being ambitious. 

Her argument originally was that she had done the work while not registered with the BSA and tagging along with her brother and dad. While I had not seen tagalongs except at Cub Scouts until recently, apparently this is a big thing in other areas. If she receives Eagle for that, what about all the other sisters who tagged along througout the years?

Her current argument, the one apparently the one her Scout Exec approved of, is that she earned Scouts Canada's highest award, and should be given credit for that. And they did, to Life. The problem that many of us have is A) the family did this as a way of bypassing BSA policy and B) she is not Canadian and thus does not meet the "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here..." portion of the G2A. Again she and her family want to be rewarding for ignoring the rules.Sadly it does a great disservie to the other young ladies in Scouting who have played by the rules.

25 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I doubt I'd just grant an Eagle except in some kind of really egregious exception (i.e. a youth who did every requirement by the book, but for some reason was prevented from officially being a member).  

Sadly you would be surprised. While I agree with national making Ms. Ireland wait like everyone else, I have seen cases where individuals received Eagle without earning it. In my district recently, we had one Scout who did not complete his Eagle Project in time. Long story short, the benefiting organization kicked him and the Scouts working with him off the property because not only did he not follow directions given to him, the damage he caused required a contractor, and could have caused the benefiting organization to be fined due to lack of ADA access. Further, after 20+ years of working with Scouts on doing Eagle Projects, they no longer allow Scouts to do work their. It  was only after threats of lawsuits that he received his Eagle.

But the worse case was the one National approved after being denied at the district and council level appeal. major problems were discovered, and it was my first encounter  with 'pencil whipping" The Scout was 13, and had plenty of time to rectify the situation.National stated "you do not punish the Scout for the mistakes of the adults" in their letter to council granting his Eagle. When the district advancement committee got the letter, they resigned in protest, stating " national can conduct these boards of review now."

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Yes, we want her to go through the entire process properly, just like all the other young men, and now women, in Scouting. While it is an exceptional point in Scouting, it is still not a time to reward those who have violated BSA policy.

I think there's times in life to look at the big picture.  The girl wanted to be a Scout her whole life.  She couldn't do it offically, so she tagged along.  She joined Scouts Canada.  She did lots of learning and advancement work as a tagalong and as a member of Scouts Canada.  

I see her case is very different from a typical youth who shows up and says "Hey, I think I ought to be First Class."  

As a Scouter, I'd always listen to an argument like this from a Scout.  I wouldn't fault any for trying to be ambitious.  I think that's part of learning to be a good leader.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I think there's times in life to look at the big picture.  The girl wanted to be a Scout her whole life.  She couldn't do it offically, so she tagged along.  She joined Scouts Canada.  She did lots of learning and advancement work as a tagalong and as a member of Scouts Canada.  

I see her case is very different from a typical youth who shows up and says "Hey, I think I ought to be First Class."  

As a Scouter, I'd always listen to an argument like this from a Scout.  I wouldn't fault any for trying to be ambitious.  I think that's part of learning to be a good leader.

To extend my prior comment:

- The BSA has already said that tag along work doesn't count.  So whie she and others may want it to, it doesn't.  So, while I don't fault a Scout for asking, I'd have to simply that no, it doens't count.  If enough people petition BSA national leadership, perhaps that will change.  But, petitioning national leadership is the way to follow the rules & process.  Not following the rules would have been to simply buy that patch and wear it - she's not doing that.

- The BSA does allow for international experience to transfer.  This seems to be a legitimate argument and within the rules.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

As a Scouter, I'd always listen to an argument like this from a Scout.  I wouldn't fault any for trying to be ambitious.  I think that's part of learning to be a good leader.

I can see your compassion, or empathizing, or whatever, is driving you to help this one girl feel better about her situation. But like most of these discussions that are getting derailed from reason, there are far more "boys" in the program than girls. Are you suggesting test out program so all new scouts (both boys and girls) can jump strait to Eagle? 

Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I think there's times in life to look at the big picture.  The girl wanted to be a Scout her whole life.  She couldn't do it offically, so she tagged along.  She joined Scouts Canada.  She did lots of learning and advancement work as a tagalong and as a member of Scouts Canada.  

I see her case is very different from a typical youth who shows up and says "Hey, I think I ought to be First Class."  

While it is noble to listen, sometimes you need to explain why it cannot be and have them face reality.  There have been many girls who wanted to be Scouts. Sea Scouts, Exploring, and Venturing have been coed for a long time. Is it fair to those girls who have followed the rules, were members of the BSA, but not give them Eagle because they did not spend summers in Canada? Best Example I can give are teh fraternal twins that were in my district. Brother was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturer. He became an Eagle. Sister tagged along for Cub Scouts, got briefly  involved in GSUSA and quit, then got into Venturing as soon as she turned 14. Is it fair to her?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to comment on any particular post because I don't know that I am responding to a particular thing.  I think we all should be careful that we are not gatekeeping and drawing lines we don't have the authority to draw.  Ms. Ireland is a unique case for sure, but if a female scout moved to the US tomorrow and was granted an equivalency of Life rank would we have the same argument? Would it cause the same stress? When a male scout does the same thing, would it bother us?  

Who has the authority to grant "equivalency" for rank done in other organizations? Did that group grant the rank as they would have for a male scout?  Would it dilute the Eagle if a male scout had done the same thing? Does it really matter to other eagles if some are given a shortcut?

National can fix this by saying no eagles will be issued to female scouts until a certain date regardless of when requirements are completed.  With or without Ms. Ireland there will still be a true "first female eagle" even if there isn't an official one. 

Remember than Advancement is one method but not the only one. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

While it is noble to listen, sometimes you need to explain why it cannot be and have them face reality.  There have been many girls who wanted to be Scouts. Sea Scouts, Exploring, and Venturing have been coed for a long time. Is it fair to those girls who have followed the rules, were members of the BSA, but not give them Eagle because they did not spend summers in Canada? Best Example I can give are teh fraternal twins that were in my district. Brother was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturer. He became an Eagle. Sister tagged along for Cub Scouts, got briefly involved in GSUSA and quit, then got into Venturing as soon as she turned 14. Is it fair to her?

Sure - of course.  Don't encourage a fools errand.  But, I don't think that happened here.  She had an idea to get some advancement credit for her invovlement in Scouts Canada and it worked.  Clearly someone in addition to me thought it was a good idea.

While we want to be as fair as possible, we can get ourselves hung up on "being fair."  

  • Is it fair that this one scout was so engaged in Scouting "unofficially" that she became a vocal proponent for a BSA program for girls?  Was it fair that she was so invovled that when admission of girls to the BSA happened that she had all kinds of transferrable skills and advancement completed?  Would it be fair to ignore that work?  Would it be fair to provide credit for that work?
  • Is it fair to girls that the BSA hasn't been co-ed for the past 100+ years?  is it fair to boys that it is now?  Is it fair the a 16 year old girl cannot test out?  Is it fair to that same 16 year old girl that she couldn't join 4 years ago?
  • Is it fair that one scout is stronger, smarter, or has more financial resources than another?  Is it fair that one scout has parents who can bring him to every event when another has parents who both work constantly?  Is it fair that one scout lives in a neighborhood with a great troop?  Is it fair that another lives in a neighborhood with a weak troop?

The answer to all of these is that of course it's not fair.  I don't know how you look at any of this and think it's fair.  So, I think you make the best, most equitable rules you can and follow them.  I think that's what the BSA is trying to do.  So, we stick to those rules as best we can.  She found a way to use the rules to her advantage.  I don't fault her for that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, ParkMan said:

So, I think you make the best, most equitable rules you can and follow them.  I think that's what the BSA is trying to do.  So, we stick to those rules as best we can.

I think that's the crux of the issue for me.  We were told nothing was going to change program-wise and we have well documented rules for advancement.  We were told no prior credit would be given.  Then the exceptions started.  Extensions for Eagle, waving the FC requirement for girls for the WSJ, etc.   In this case the rules are being folded, spindled, and mutilated for one high-profile scout.  It is embarrassing. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The exceptions and ignoring of the rules when it comes to advancement has been going on for a long time as has been noted in this thread and others. BSA has zero quality control.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I want to know is how Ms. Ireland got into Scouts Canada? We live in a border city and I was not allowed to enroll my children that are half Canadian in Scouts Canada. I was told by the local council, provincial council and the National office that kids living in the USA weren't allowed to enroll in Scouts Canada due to reciprocity agreements between Scouts Canada and the BSA. The only way my kids could enroll was to be residents of Canada. 

My daughter wanted to be a Scout so bad she could taste it in first grade. There were no GSUSA troops in our area that would take her. So I called Scouts Canada to find a unit near my Mom's house for her. They told me no. So I called Girl Guides Canada and they helped us get her in to unit near Grandma's house. She went all the way thru their program. A weekly trip across the border for Scouting for 9 years. During much of that time she was in a great GSUSA Cadette/Senior/Ambassador troop 25 miles one way from the house.  Life would have been so much easier if I could have just put her and her younger brother into Scouts Canada's program. But we were told no.

If kids that are half Canadian are refused by Scouts Canada how did a US kid get in? We didn't force the issue. We didn't fake papers or residency, we accepted what we were told. I'm not saying that Ms. Ireland lied or cheated to get in but I am confused. She was part of the same provincial council we would have been in and we were told no. Something seems fishy on that front too. Ms. Ireland needs to play by the same rules as everyone else, not have lawyers and money buy her what she wants.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, ParkMan said:

The answer to all of these is that of course it's not fair.  I don't know how you look at any of this and think it's fair.  So, I think you make the best, most equitable rules you can and follow them.  I think that's what the BSA is trying to do.  So, we stick to those rules as best we can.  She found a way to use the rules to her advantage.  I don't fault her for that.

Actually if you want to get technical, she did not meet the rules unless she is a Canadian citizen residing in New York. From reading here and elsewhere, National will not allow her to have an EBOR until some point in 2020, when every other female will be able to have theirs.

27 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

The exceptions and ignoring of the rules when it comes to advancement has been going on for a long time as has been noted in this thread and others. BSA has zero quality control.

Sadly this is correct. Why her SE is allowing her to wear a Life rank I can only think it is threat of lawsuit, despite her not meeting criteria UNLESS she is a Canadian citizen residing in NY.

 

37 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I think that's the crux of the issue for me.  We were told nothing was going to change program-wise and we have well documented rules for advancement.  We were told no prior credit would be given.  Then the exceptions started.  Extensions for Eagle, waving the FC requirement for girls for the WSJ, etc.   In this case the rules are being folded, spindled, and mutilated for one high-profile scout.  It is embarrassing. 

This is why I am disturbed by the entire situation. Especially since those of us who predicted major changes to the program as a result of admitting girls were labeled sexist and bigoted, and have been told by folks that we should quit Scouting, or worse in some cases.

26 minutes ago, bsaggcmom said:

What I want to know is how Ms. Ireland got into Scouts Canada? We live in a border city and I was not allowed to enroll my children that are half Canadian in Scouts Canada. I was told by the local council, provincial council and the National office that kids living in the USA weren't allowed to enroll in Scouts Canada due to reciprocity agreements between Scouts Canada and the BSA. The only way my kids could enroll was to be residents of Canada..... 

If kids that are half Canadian are refused by Scouts Canada how did a US kid get in? We didn't force the issue. We didn't fake papers or residency, we accepted what we were told. I'm not saying that Ms. Ireland lied or cheated to get in but I am confused. She was part of the same provincial council we would have been in and we were told no. Something seems fishy on that front too. Ms. Ireland needs to play by the same rules as everyone else, not have lawyers and money buy her what she wants.

Good question as to how she got accepted.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, mds3d said:

... National can fix this by saying no eagles will be issued to female scouts until a certain date regardless of when requirements are completed.  With or without Ms. Ireland there will still be a true "first female eagle" even if there isn't an official one. 

Remember than Advancement is one method but not the only one. 

This is national's fix : no female Eagle until October 31st of next year:

Quote

For the inaugural class of female Eagle Scouts, all boards of review will take place between Oct. 1 and Oct. 31, 2020. All boards of review for this inaugural class will be dated Oct. 31, 2020.

Miss Ireland could still be the 1st female Eagle, all that is needed is for all other females in Scouts BSA to withhold submitting their application until November 1, 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bsaggcmom said:

What I want to know is how Ms. Ireland got into Scouts Canada? We live in a border city and I was not allowed to enroll my children that are half Canadian in Scouts Canada. I was told by the local council, provincial council and the National office that kids living in the USA weren't allowed to enroll in Scouts Canada due to reciprocity agreements between Scouts Canada and the BSA. The only way my kids could enroll was to be residents of Canada. 

My daughter wanted to be a Scout so bad she could taste it in first grade. There were no GSUSA troops in our area that would take her. So I called Scouts Canada to find a unit near my Mom's house for her. They told me no. So I called Girl Guides Canada and they helped us get her in to unit near Grandma's house. She went all the way thru their program. A weekly trip across the border for Scouting for 9 years. During much of that time she was in a great GSUSA Cadette/Senior/Ambassador troop 25 miles one way from the house.  Life would have been so much easier if I could have just put her and her younger brother into Scouts Canada's program. But we were told no.

If kids that are half Canadian are refused by Scouts Canada how did a US kid get in? We didn't force the issue. We didn't fake papers or residency, we accepted what we were told. I'm not saying that Ms. Ireland lied or cheated to get in but I am confused. She was part of the same provincial council we would have been in and we were told no. Something seems fishy on that front too. Ms. Ireland needs to play by the same rules as everyone else, not have lawyers and money buy her what she wants.

You must not be a rich lawyer constantly searching for and then shamelessly exploiting loopholes.

And if I recall correctly, wasn’t there something about the whole Ireland family claiming dual residency and the father buying a house in Canada so Sydney could be a Canada Scout in the summer or something?

Edited by an_old_DC
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

A) the family did this as a way of bypassing BSA policy and B) she is not Canadian and thus does not meet the "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here..." portion of the G2A.

I think people are conflating different portions of the G2A. I will quote the individual sentences in order.

5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries

Quote

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement.

This section clearly allows for non-citizens to join BSA.

Quote

If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive.

This section clearly states that prior progress made in another scouting organization may be considered and recognized by the council (note, this is not a call made by Nationals - the authority to recognize resides with the council).

The G2A never envisioned the idea that a US citizen would have foreign scouting experience that they would want to apply to BSA so the language does not account for such.

So, I ask, what does BSA accomplish by creating such an odd exclusion? Why would we grant more options and freedoms to a non-citizen than we do our own citizens?

 

Lastly, I will quote one more section of G2A:

1.0.1.0 How to Approach Issues Not Covered in the Guide to Advancement

Quote

In situations not specifically covered in this guide, advancement chairs, coordinators, or other administrators should make decisions based on the aims and mission of the Boy Scouts of America as well as the Scout Oath and Scout Law, other applicable current and official BSA resources—and common sense.

I fail to see how anyone would argue that it is common sense to allow a female Canadian the right to have their prior service recognized in BSA but disallow a citizen of the United States the same right. What do we accomplish as an organization by creating such a prohibition?

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×