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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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10 hours ago, mashmaster said:

A woggle is a woggle.  Part of the attitude of those adults that you had to deal with is part of what I have issue with woodbadge.  Some people make such a big deal about Wood Badge that people that take the course are better scouters than others.  Wood Badge is a good course, I know many people that have taken wood badge that take every short cut possible, and I know people that didn't that do more for scouting that is above and beyond what is expected.  IMHO, the course has nothing to do about ones character and work ethic, it may just enhance the ethic on the good and bad side.

I have recently stopped wearing my WB necker because of this attitude.

A woggle is a woggle? I disagree, in fact the Wood Badge Woggle, Beads and Necker are one of the very few things that are recognized world wide. It is worn to symbolize completion of something. Just as 3 beads are for staff and 4 for course directors symbolizes a position held. 

With your logic a NESA slide is just a slide (not an indicator of being an Eagle and supporting NESA). Same for SPL patch, Commissioner arrowhead, Jamboree necker, Ranger Award medal, AOL knot, Founders dangle, Lodge flap, Silver Beaver award, and so on. Scouting restrict certain items for wear because they are earned or because they are honors. The WB Woggle is one of those items. 

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with Wood Badgers, most I know give back far far more than the average Scouter, certainly more than an hour a week. But there are some bad apples out there. Just as there are in any group. I have certainly met Eagles that have disappointed, Arrowmen that lack in the area of Cheerful Service. In fact if I were to stop wearing certain items, as you have with the WB Necker, because of the actions of a few that also wore it, then I would not even wear the BSA uniform. 

We can choose to disassociate ourselves from a program because there are those that do not demonstrate the best qualities or we can choose to double down, wear the necker with pride and try to be the very best example of what that program represents. I choose the latter.

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23 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

I am not a fan of Ms. Ireland's tactics or rhetoric, but to be fair to her, I remember reading that is some type of  Wood Badge part 1 in Canada which she was eligible and has participated,  thus eligible to wear the WB woggle. I do not recall all the details but that portion of Wood Badge is open to youth and the Woogle signifies completion. 

Ahh - if that's the reason I'd very gladly welcome her to wearing it.  That she was a Scout in Canada, earned such a recognition, and wears it with her Scouts BSA uniform is pretty cool

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Regarding questions about a new Scout having Life rank less then a month after joining Scouts BSA, a Scout Executive explains it in the Tweet 

as "... progress from a foreign Scouting association is... applied to BSA requirements..."

(For Ms Ireland I'd be curious if she meets the stipulation that "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,..."

Regarding other comments about lax application of advancement requirements for girls... After holding Unit, District and Council positions I've learned that lax application of Rank and Merit Badge requirements in my District is common.  Alas, the BSA Councils and Districts have never done very good quality control with their franchisee, the Unit.

 

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2 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

A woggle is a woggle? I disagree, in fact the Wood Badge Woggle, Beads and Necker are one of the very few things that are recognized world wide. It is worn to symbolize completion of something. Just as 3 beads are for staff and 4 for course directors symbolizes a position held. 

With your logic a NESA slide is just a slide (not an indicator of being an Eagle and supporting NESA). Same for SPL patch, Commissioner arrowhead, Jamboree necker, Ranger Award medal, AOL knot, Founders dangle, Lodge flap, Silver Beaver award, and so on. Scouting restrict certain items for wear because they are earned or because they are honors. The WB Woggle is one of those items. 

I am sorry you have had such a bad experience with Wood Badgers, most I know give back far far more than the average Scouter, certainly more than an hour a week. But there are some bad apples out there. Just as there are in any group. I have certainly met Eagles that have disappointed, Arrowmen that lack in the area of Cheerful Service. In fact if I were to stop wearing certain items, as you have with the WB Necker, because of the actions of a few that also wore it, then I would not even wear the BSA uniform. 

We can choose to disassociate ourselves from a program because there are those that do not demonstrate the best qualities or we can choose to double down, wear the necker with pride and try to be the very best example of what that program represents. I choose the latter.

Woggles have been used in scouting outside of Wood Badge for long time.   Maybe the leather woggle has been adopted as a symbol of Wood Badge.  Scouts make them from paracord all the time.   

Those other items all have a very specific meaning and even writing that specifically says what they are.  

Some Wood Badgers are awesome, I just don't think the course changed them into better scouters.  I think those that do would have done it without the course.  Those that did it specifically for the regalia, will continue to only do in self interest.    Just my opinion.  and we are way off topic.

I appreciate your service to the youth and all the others on the forum as well.

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10 hours ago, Wëlënakwsu said:

Regarding questions about a new Scout having Life rank less then a month after joining Scouts BSA, a Scout Executive explains it in the Tweet 

as "... progress from a foreign Scouting association is... applied to BSA requirements..."

(For Ms Ireland I'd be curious if she meets the stipulation that "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,..."

Regarding other comments about lax application of advancement requirements for girls... After holding Unit, District and Council positions I've learned that lax application of Rank and Merit Badge requirements in my District is common.  Alas, the BSA Councils and Districts have never done very good quality control with their franchisee, the Unit.

 

So the local council is approving Life, based upon her work in Canada. If she was Canadian, I could understand. But she is a US Citizen, and doesn't meet the "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States...." part.

 

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10 hours ago, Wëlënakwsu said:

Regarding questions about a new Scout having Life rank less then a month after joining Scouts BSA, a Scout Executive explains it in the Tweet 

 

as "... progress from a foreign Scouting association is... applied to BSA requirements..."

(For Ms Ireland I'd be curious if she meets the stipulation that "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here,..."

My first reaction upon reading this was - huh?  She's an American citizen.  But, on reading a little more about her background and reflecting...

Here we have a Scout who so loves Scouting so much that when she spent summers in Canada she joined their Scouting association.  It reminded me of kids who transfer overseas and then join the local Scouting program.  We had a Scout in our troop do that.  We also have had a Scout from another country join our troop while living in the US.

As I see it, at the end of the day, this is a program about helping youth to develop.  Advancement is one method to help these young adults develop.  For years, she wanted to join the BSA, but could not.  So, she joined Scouts Canada when she could.  Later, when she finally was able to join, people found a way for her prior Scouting experience In Canada to reflect her appropriate point in the advancement process in the Scouts BSA program.  Maybe I've got a soft spot for those people with heart and spirit, but this seems like a pretty fair & creative solution. 

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5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

this seems like a pretty fair & creative solution. 

My cynical side also says that the bsa really wanted to find a within the rules answer to cover what they realized what she was going to do regardless. That said, I’m glad they found a within the rules cover for the situation. 

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1 minute ago, malraux said:

My cynical side also says that the bsa really wanted to find a within the rules answer to cover what they realized what she was going to do regardless. That said, I’m glad they found a within the rules cover for the situation. 

The found no solution. They just ignored the rules.

We have discussed "border jumping" for advancement before. And, the problem would still remains that while advancing in a comparable program overseas, the scout was not a boy and therefore would not qualify to begin Boy Scout Rank until this year. The scout could wear any distinguished medals that the foriegn association awarded. She could even wear venturing medals.

Regardless of the fairness of the thing, her rank is based strictly on requirements completed this year ... patch notwithstanding.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, malraux said:

My cynical side also says that the bsa really wanted to find a within the rules answer to cover what they realized what she was going to do regardless. That said, I’m glad they found a within the rules cover for the situation. 

So then is she eligible for Eagle in 6 months (assuming completion of service project, POR, etc.)? And if so, in the name of avoiding delayed recognition, why should she have to wait 2 years for the first "introductory class of female Eagles"?

Edited by Pale Horse

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13 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

A woggle is a woggle? I disagree, in fact the Wood Badge Woggle, Beads and Necker are one of the very few things that are recognized world wide. It is worn to symbolize completion of something. Just as 3 beads are for staff and 4 for course directors symbolizes a position held. 

Just to add, as a side note. In the UK we have wood-beads given when you complete your leader training, and you then become a member of the 1st Gilwell Park Scout Group, which has its own necker you can buy (a fairly drab thick woollen thing, I didn't bother). I'm 90% sure there is no official wood badge woggle in the UK that is restricted to wood badge holders only. I believe the 3 & 4 bead thing was phased out in the late 60s/early 70s in the UK.

 

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9 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

So then is she eligible for Eagle in 6 months (assuming completion of service project, POR, etc.)? And if so, in the name of avoiding delayed recognition, why should she have to wait 2 years for the first "introductory class of female Eagles"?

Yes - this would seem correct to me.  Asking a Scout to wait 2 years to officially become an Eagle Scout just because of some silly "first female Eagle" designation seems to feed into unneccessary hysteria around the rank.  Just award the girl the rank when she turns in the application and move on.

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I would like to learn more about how Councils determine and give "transfer" credit for awards from one scouting organization to another, if they do at all. 

About citizenship. I have met American kids stateside who followed their family heritage and joined foreign Scouting stateside units e.g., Lithuanian, Israeli.  I have wondered how many other countries have their own scouts units in the US and if they have Americans in their scout ranks.

I wondered if some heads rolled at that NY Council and unit.  

Maybe we need "instant replay"? When adults make the wrong call, the advancement decision can be reviewed and reversed. Not correcting a "mistake" by adults, "punishes" the larger group of scouters and scouts who follow the rules. 

My $0.02,

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Maybe we need "instant replay"? When adults make the wrong call, the advancement decision can be reviewed and reversed. Not correcting a "mistake" by adults, "punishes" the larger group of scouters and scouts who follow the rules. 

My $0.02,

They'll never reverse a decision and just fall back on the "not punishing the youth for the mistakes of adults."

Edited by Pale Horse
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1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

..Maybe I've got a soft spot for those people with heart and spirit, but this seems like a pretty fair & creative solution. 

I'd be with you on this if it really was just about credit for past scouting work completed and she would join that inaugural class of Eagles. But my feeling (from what I've read and heard from this scout and her family) is that this may have more to do with her wanting to be "the first". She isn't content with credit for the work. She has specifically asked for the "immediate granting" of the rank of Eagle Scout.

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1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

They'll never reverse a decision and just fall back on the "not punishing the youth for the mistakes of adults."

Correct. Even for Eagle Scout, National will give the Scout their Eagle  even if not properly earned.

Regarding Ms. Ireland, I am told she will indeed have to wait, despite her local council apparently giving her Life. 

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