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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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On the question of whether there are any shortcuts being taken/given to girls, I don't think it's debatable. It is an absolute fact that it's happening (a prominent female scout was wearing her Life rank badge in media photos months ago).

There's too much appeal for some parents and leaders to have their scouts be among this historic group of girls who are "the first" in many facets of advancement, from Cubs through Eagle.

It's literal history in the making. "Inaugural Class of Female Eagle Scouts." What parent or SM of an eligible female scout wouldn't want them to be a part of that? And of course we all hope it's done by the book for every scout, but realistically we know it's not, and there's little effort to hide it in some cases.

Every scout should be held to the same high standard, regardless of gender. Unfortunately I also think there's little hope of that happening any time soon. These aren't normal times for the BSA, and they won't become normal until the dust settles, we all get our bearings with the new BSA, and we're done with all of the "firsts" for girls and can get back to business as usual. Until then, it's a race to be a part of history, and for some adults that unfortunately means turning a blind eye to shortcuts.

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I enjoy observing human behavior. I'm curious how program dynamics would change if all scouts were given the Eagle now.

Barry

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23 minutes ago, FireStone said:

On the question of whether there are any shortcuts being taken/given to girls, I don't think it's debatable. It is an absolute fact that it's happening (a prominent female scout was wearing her Life rank badge in media photos months ago).

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

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2 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

This isn't new to scouting, Navybone. 

""I've been on this forum for 20 something years and the subject of advancement has been discussed a 1000 times. In every discussion, the traditionalist consistently expressed that each scout's advancement journey is the scouts choices and responsibility. 

Barry""

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23 minutes ago, FireStone said:

There's too much appeal for some parents and leaders to have their scouts be among this historic group of girls who are "the first" in many facets of advancement, from Cubs through Eagle.

It's literal history in the making. "Inaugural Class of Female Eagle Scouts." What parent or SM of an eligible female scout wouldn't want them to be a part of that? And of course we all hope it's done by the book for every scout, but realistically we know it's not, and there's little effort to hide it in some cases.

Every scout should be held to the same high standard, regardless of gender. Unfortunately I also think there's little hope of that happening any time soon. These aren't normal times for the BSA, and they won't become normal until the dust settles, we all get our bearings with the new BSA, and we're done with all of the "firsts" for girls and can get back to business as usual. Until then, it's a race to be a part of history, and for some adults that unfortunately means turning a blind eye to shortcuts.

As I recall, there were similar suppositions in 2012 for the  "100th Anniversary of the Eagle Scout Award"

https://scoutingmagazine.org/2012/04/eagle-scout-award-celebrates-100th-anniversary/

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1 minute ago, Navybone said:

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

Is it possible, following the rank advancement criteria that all other scouts are held to, for a scout to have legitimately earned First Class rank within 40 days of joining Scouts BSA?

Is it possible, following the rank advancement criteria that all other scouts are held to, for a scout to have legitimately earned Life rank, within a month of joining Scouts BSA?

I think it's completely expected that we'll see many hard-chargers amongst the first crop of girls coming into BSA, as many of them have been right there beside their brothers and are chomping at the bit to start earning ranks for what they have already learned to do.   That however puts First Class, a minimum of 86 days out from the date of joining, Star and Life somewhat further due to time-in-position requirements.

If you can explain any legitimate process that is available to all scouts, for short-changing those time periods, then nobody has any cause to raise eyebrows.  If, however, there is no legitimate mechanism available to all scouts that would enable them to be Life, the month they join, then it does not require personal knowledge of what shortcuts were taken, to be aware that something was permitted, that is not permitted to other scouts.  That's called a shortcut.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

It is documented, as I mentioned (media photos).

Edited by FireStone
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33 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Unless you are personally aware of  personally involved with, or have documentation of, shortcuts taken by individual you mention, is is not fact. It is supposition on your part.   

 

24 minutes ago, willray said:

Is it possible, following the rank advancement criteria that all other scouts are held to, for a scout to have legitimately earned First Class rank within 40 days of joining Scouts BSA?

Is it possible, following the rank advancement criteria that all other scouts are held to, for a scout to have legitimately earned Life rank, within a month of joining Scouts BSA?

I think it's completely expected that we'll see many hard-chargers amongst the first crop of girls coming into BSA, as many of them have been right there beside their brothers and are chomping at the bit to start earning ranks for what they have already learned to do.   That however puts First Class, a minimum of 86 days out from the date of joining, Star and Life somewhat further due to time-in-position requirements.

If you can explain any legitimate process that is available to all scouts, for short-changing those time periods, then nobody has any cause to raise eyebrows.  If, however, there is no legitimate mechanism available to all scouts that would enable them to be Life, the month they join, then it does not require personal knowledge of what shortcuts were taken, to be aware that something was permitted, that is not permitted to other scouts.  That's called a shortcut.

This falls into the "cannot make a positive" assumption or offer proof of issues.  Rather than acknowledge that it does possibly appear there could be challenges, there possibly could be some leaders short cutting the process and maybe denying the Scout the full program, the response from some is prove it.  

Very much like the situation where you walk into your house and see a picture that was hanging on the wall laying on the floor broken and ball laying near it.  You may not be able to prove your child did it, but certainly it looks that way.

Most of the concern, at least on my part, is the advancement apple seems to be replacing in some cases the journey of Scouting.  Kudos I assume to those that want to race the ranks, and there are some joining later in their years that will be racing.  But, all that being said, hopefully the leaders of the units will follow the program and not short change any Scout.  We as a Scouting movement are only as good as the program we preside over in our units.

Hopefully Scouting does not become just about earning Eagle as fast as you can, then move on the to next thing, the next box to check off.

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36 minutes ago, FireStone said:

It is documented, as I mentioned (media photos).

A photo only shows you one thing - that she is wearing Life Scout.  Unless there is additional information in the photo or accompanying it, that is all it tells you.  What was her history with scouting, was she a venturer, how involved is her family, her troop, her motivation?    It does not and cannot tell you that anything was fudged, fabricated, altered, or all together ignored.  

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Navybone said:

A photo only shows you one thing - that she is wearing Life Scout.  Unless there is additional information in the photo or accompanying it, that is all it tells you.  What was her history with scouting, was she a venturer, how involved is her family, her troop, her motivation?    It does not and cannot tell you that anything was fudged, fabricated, altered, or all together ignored.  

I will ask again - is there any legitimate mechanism that you can suggest, that is available to all scouts, that would enable a scout to legitimately wear the Life patch, within a month of their first enrollment as a Scout in BSA?

I see nothing in the rank requirements that would allow a scout to apply experiences prior to their joining any troop, to advancement in Scouts BSA.  Were it so, we would have numerous cubs joining at First Class rank or higher.

I am 100% behind the idea that girls with the appropriate interests can benefit as much from the ideals of scouting, through the methods of the BSA, as can boys.  There is nothing in the Scout Oath or Law that is in any way gender-specific, and there are certainly girls who are every bit as much into the outdoor program as the best of the boys.

I am 100% opposed to rank inflation and the conversion of ranks and awards into a patch-race, rather than a system for recognizing a scout's achievements within scouting, and a large part of the reason that I am an ASM in a Girls' Troop, is because I believe they can accomplish traditional BSA program and advancement undiluted, and the best way that I can make sure that it is not diluted, and that scouts in both Boys' and Girls' Troops are given every opportunity to maximally benefit from program, is to be there holding the line.

I am 100% convinced that the girls in my troop, who are working very hard and of whom I am quite proud, are severely demoralized when they see a girl wearing a rank patch that she could not have earned if she followed the same rules that BSA requires of every other scout.

Edited by willray
precision grammar
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Actually, the picture does tell you that things were altered.  The Life rank could only be earned as a member of a Troop and at the time of the picture, girls were not allowed to join Troops so how could she have earned the Life rank?

As I understand it, her family is involved in Scouting, with parents being leaders.  She apparently spent a lot of time with the family Scouting and was rewarded for that time with ranks, etc. that could not have been earned properly.

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Posted (edited)

National directly handled that matter, though we do not know the full extent, and kindly remarked. 

"If you regularly sit in on classes at Columbia University, but aren't matriculated in the school, after auditing a full course load and after the traditional four year college experience, you unfortunately still are not eligible for a Columbia diploma if you were not officially enrolled. "

No short cut. 

Edited by RememberSchiff

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

National directly handled that matter, though we do not know the full extent, and remarked. 

"If you regularly sit in on classes at Columbia University, but aren't matriculated in the school, after auditing a full course load and after the traditional four year college experience, you unfortunately still are not eligible for a Columbia diploma if you were not officially enrolled. "

No short cut. 

... Clarification please - Are you saying that short-cuts don't (legitimately) exist, or, that somehow the shortcut was not a shortcut?

Edited by willray

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No and no. 

The advancement short cut that was being attempted was rejected by National. 

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59 minutes ago, Navybone said:

A photo only shows you one thing - that she is wearing Life Scout.  Unless there is additional information in the photo or accompanying it, that is all it tells you.  What was her history with scouting, was she a venturer, how involved is her family, her troop, her motivation?    It does not and cannot tell you that anything was fudged, fabricated, altered, or all together ignored.  

It 100% tells me that things were fudged, fabricated, altered, or ignored. It is impossible that a female scout could even be wearing the Life rank badge today, not to mention months ago.

We're 3 months into Scouts BSA. In what possible way could a female scout earn Life rank already?

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