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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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9 hours ago, Treflienne said:

Not so hard:   3 camping overnights,   3 local day hikes,  and four other things:  (help with scout recruiting night?  do ILST?  help with the spring cleanup at the CO? one more? )  And while the girl reaching 1st class has to do all of them,  its not required to pick a day when the entire troop can go.   Get half or more of your patrol and two willing adults (different ones for different activities) and you are all set.   One overnight and two other Saturday mornings per month.

Yes, it's possible, but IMHO, this would be an extremely ambitious for most scouts, and unless this girl is solely involved in scouting without any other extracurriculars, part time job, etc. then that would also pose some challenges to actually completing these without a tail wind in her favor.

 

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3 minutes ago, SSF said:

Yes, this girl supposedly completed these requirements in very quick time, as you admit. Does it not strike you as odd that girls are racing towards advancement so rapidly?

Correct we have no evidence that she did not complete the requirements properly. We also have no evidence to indicate that she actually did. All of this stems from the girl posting on social media.

Two reason I look at this differently.

1.  A scout is trustworthy - if she did not meet the requirements, she is obviously not meeting the intend, standards, and ideals of scouting. 

2.  Part of the rule of law that we teach scouts is innocent until proven guilty.  

The onus is not on her to prove you wrong, she only has to make her case to her troop and her council.   

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, SSF said:

... We also have no evidence to indicate that she actually did. ...

Actually, we do. A round oval.

I mean really, if the scout took 4 years to earn the patch and we saw his/her picture bragging about it, have we any more evidence that he/she did it legitimately?

Edited by qwazse
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8 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

A bit of a bragging post here, but I just reviewed my son's scout calendar for the past 3 months.

Feb 9: Helped run ex-pack's pinewood derby with other members of his troop
(Outdoors) Feb 10: Patrol day hike
(Outdoors and Overnight) Feb 22-24: Troop snow campout
(Outdoors) Mar 2: Scouting for food service project (fliering)
(Outdoors) Mar 3: District aquatics day
(Outdoors) Mar 9 morning: Scouting for food service project (food pickup)
Mar 9 evening: Troop fundraising project (setting up, serving food, and cleanup for retired teacher's dinner)
Mar 16: 8-hour Red Cross FA/CPR training (technically not a troop/patrol event - but was done in preparation for high adventure trek this summer)
Mar 17: Attended ex-pack's blue and gold ceremony (did crossover ceremony for new scouts)
(Outdoors and Overnight) Mar 22-24: Troop new scout campout
(Outdoors) Mar 31: Troop day hike
(Outdoors and Overnight) April 5-7: District camporee
April 13: Staff meeting for Troop ILST
April 14: Troop ILST
April 20: Attended Eagle court of honor
(Outdoors and Overnight) May 4-5: Troop campout

These activities were all in addition to regularly scheduled troop or patrol meetings.  And he was not even trying to rush to first class.  He actually missed one troop activity in February when he attended a church event instead.

That's an incredibly packed schedule. Your son's unit seems to be the exception. Back to back day hikes in addition to camping trips. Definitely a very full calendar.

You listed the district's aquatics day as an outdoor activity in March though...did you list that as an outdoor activity by mistake? I'm presuming that was done at an indoor pool.

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5 hours ago, willray said:

We will bend over backwards to make opportunities available for our scouts, and we do - our girls troop is focused on advancement, we're doing everything possible to put advancement opportunities in front of them, and with that focus, we've got probably 40% of them pushing Tenderfoot at this point.

So, you're doing everything possible to ensure that these girls advance quickly. Are the girls being tested? Are they actually learning the skills?

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5 minutes ago, SSF said:

That's an incredibly packed schedule. Your son's unit seems to be the exception. Back to back day hikes in addition to camping trips. Definitely a very full calendar.

You listed the district's aquatics day as an outdoor activity in March though...did you list that as an outdoor activity by mistake? I'm presuming that was done at an indoor pool.

13 activities in three months? Packed? We knocked out about 12 in as many months. It just depends on who needs to do service projects.

5 minutes ago, SSF said:

So, you're doing everything possible to ensure that these girls advance quickly. Are the girls being tested? Are they actually learning the skills?

Let's see a throw-down!!!! @SSF's tenderfoot scouts vs. @willray's!

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14 minutes ago, Navybone said:

Two reason I look at this differently.

1.  A scout is trustworthy - if she did not meet the requirements, she is obviously not meeting the intend, standards, and ideals of scouting. 

2.  Part of the rule of law that we teach scouts is innocent until proven guilty.  

The onus is not on her to prove you wrong, she only has to make her case to her troop and her council.   

I've never heard of the "rule of law" being applied to BSA advancement. 

You sound like a criminal defense attorney, defending a guilty client

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2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

My guess is that most of the girls who achieve First Class this month are 16+ year-olds doing so legitimately. Like my boys of the same age who noticed the shortcomings of other scouts (usually boys they met at summer camp, or on ordeal, or some other event), I tell them to invite those scouts to whatever skill challenge they are planning in the next month.

As I mentioned previously, I would never challenge a girl who achieves first class this month (or any scout who achieves it 90-ish days after joining) regarding the integrity of their advancement.   A bit unlike @SSF, I expect the girls, at least initially, to be more motivated and focused than the boys usually are, and to move through requirements in a more purposeful way.

My problem, and the blow to the girls in my troop, were girls elevated to "trainer" positions at a council JLOW course, wearing First Class patches, a month after scouting opened to females.  In my opinion, these were the antithesis of role models.

 

Now, while I won't question the integrity of, and will do everything in my power to support a girl who wants to rocket through advancement, I do have to wonder about the wisdom of it.  I understand the drive, and I appreciate the passion, but I've always thought that even the "first class first year" push was putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, I realize that historically it was possible to do First Class even faster, but the rank requirements aren't _really_ about the literal skills, they're about giving the scouts the opportunity to have certain growth experiences that learning the skills hopefully guide them into.

I'll admit - I was a scout who came into scouting already having all of the first-class skills under my belt.  I grew up in the woods, 5 miles from the next closest kid.  Camping, rope work, knives, axes, fires, cooking, hiking, swimming - none of that was new, that's just what you did every day when you got home from school. So I breezed through the skills-based requirements. This really hurt me when it came to the more interpersonal/leadership aspects of scouting.  I never had to learn the skills with the other scouts in my troop, so I never was exposed to the opportunity to learn the other stuff that you're supposed to have to learn, to learn the skills.

When I see people blazing through the early ranks - girls or boys - I'm worried that we're failing them by letting them breeze by the actually important stuff, just because they know the shape of a knot.

 

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5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

13 activities in three months? Packed? We knocked out about 12 in as many months. It just depends on who needs to do service projects.

Let's see a throw-down!!!! @SSF's tenderfoot scouts vs. @willray's!

Our unit and the others in my area that I'm familiar with just aren't as active as others I guess...I'm still amazed by the unit that holds an outdoor aquatics event in March 

You'll have to add your own scouts to the throw-down as well...I'd just hope that we could have fair and unbiased judging

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There have been boys that have planned and made it through to First Class in record time so no doubt a girl who mayor may not be driven to be "First" can do this also.

If the girl troops are smaller there are more opportunities to get requirements signed of like first class 2e - On one campout, serve as cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in First Class requirement 2a. Supervise the cleanup.

If everyone in your Patrol is trying to 2e  signed off and you have 8 in your patrol it may take 6 months to get this.

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For various reasons some scouts advance very quickly to first class, some don't.  A first class scout is a first class scout no matter what age or time served as long as they followed the requirements.  Congrats to her and all the other first class scouts out there.

I am assuming she drove it, not her parents or leaders.  no reason to question it.

Now my view of advancement is jaded, It is only one of the methods of scouting but seems to be the one everyone focuses on.  In many respects, I think it is one of the lower ones just above uniform.  From the sounds of her busy schedule it sounds like she is enjoying the program and hopefully getting everything out of it.  The next rank is a different mindset where leadership is prioritized and that is where I see the most growth.

 

https://scoutmastercg.com/the-aims-and-methods-of-boy-scouting/

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3 minutes ago, SSF said:

Our unit and the others in my area that I'm familiar with just aren't as active as others I guess...I'm still amazed by the unit that holds an outdoor aquatics event in March 

You'll have to add your own scouts to the throw-down as well...I'd just hope that we could have fair and unbiased judging

Well, here in Texas that is easy to do.  Minnesota, not so much.

I know we have something scouting going on just about every weekend, so lots of opportunities..  

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, SSF said:

So, you're doing everything possible to ensure that these girls advance quickly. Are the girls being tested? Are they actually learning the skills?

Actually, I said we were doing everything possible to put advancement opportunities in front of them.

They are learning the skills - solidly, and at what I think is a completely reasonable and believable rate for the skills to stick.  Of the dozen girls in our girls' troop, I am pretty sure that 3 or maybe 4 of them are going to make tenderfoot by our court of honor at the beginning of June.

And absolutely, they're being tested - more rigorously than the boys in our boys troop, because the SM of our boys troop lets any first-class scout sign off on requirements, and I am only letting people who I know are competent with a skill, sign off on anything for our girls.   And yes, I know competent.

You might be surprised - I've seen far fewer instances of the girls asking for a sign-off on something where they're "iffy" than I see amongst the boys.  A boy who manages to accidentally get a square-knot right once in 30 minutes of trying, thinks he's earned a sign-off on that requirement.  Our girls screw it up and say "drat, I thought I had that!  Let me practice more and come back next week".

Edited by willray
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I am not surprised.  I think the first set of girls in the program have some very eager scouts that have been waiting to be able to start.  I assume it will level itself out in coming years because it won't be the girls that have been waiting for the door to open up.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SSF said:

I've never heard of the "rule of law" being applied to BSA advancement. 

You sound like a criminal defense attorney, defending a guilty client

No, the rule of law is part of the discussion for the citizenship in the nation merit badge discussion about the laws and founding documents of the United States 

it is not part of advancement, but what we the program instills in our Scouts    

 

Edited by Navybone

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