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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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Posted (edited)

@Kudu  Glad you returned to our campfire!! I was going to answer a question in this subforum about Patrol Method and I was planning on trying to remember a lot of what you said about it over the years.  I hope you have the time to comment on it, because you describe how it should work in a very eloquent and accurate way.

Edited by WAKWIB

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The real problem is that the work was not done while she was a member of Scouts BSA.  Since she could not have joined the troop before Feb. 1, then any work that was done does not count.  It would not count for anyone, male or female, as the rank requirements state "Since joining Scouts BSA".

To allow her to count work done elsewhere and while not a member is a disservice to any youth who has joined since Feb. 1.

Those are the rules and everyone should abide by them.  They are there to ensure that everyone is on the same level.  If National allows it to be bypassed by one then they will have to allow it for all.  Lessens the award, no matter the rank.

 

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54 minutes ago, sri_oa161 said:

The real problem is that the work was not done while she was a member of Scouts BSA.  Since she could not have joined the troop before Feb. 1, then any work that was done does not count.  It would not count for anyone, male or female, as the rank requirements state "Since joining Scouts BSA".

To allow her to count work done elsewhere and while not a member is a disservice to any youth who has joined since Feb. 1.

Those are the rules and everyone should abide by them.  They are there to ensure that everyone is on the same level.  If National allows it to be bypassed by one then they will have to allow it for all.  Lessens the award, no matter the rank.

 

The title "First Female Eagle" says it all. Politicking to bend the rules for her to be the first Eagle lessons the award. 

We live in a hostel political environment. Following rules and fairness have little to do with political correctness. It's going to come down to crumbling under the pressure of name calling. I've been saying for awhile that the BSA should give all girls in the BSA (including cubs) the Eagle right now so they can move on to the business of scouting. The Eagle has lost it's luster in the race to be first, so let them all be first.   

Barry

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I don't want to bog us down into a political haberdash here, but a logic question is what proof does her dad have that his daughter was actually the first??? Can we really say that no female, ever, did the same requirements as their male friends along the way? How can we confirm that there was never anyone else? 

And, I'm sorry, but what advocacy has Sydney or her father done to change the female-only admission policy of the school she attends in NYC? Why is that not discrimination, based on his own statements about equality?

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This makes no sense at all.  All Boys and Girls have had to live with the time restrictions between rank.  Wouldn't it be gender discrimination to waive that?

It feels like she is being treated the same as all the boys in the program.

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1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

This makes no sense at all.  All Boys and Girls have had to live with the time restrictions between rank.  Wouldn't it be gender discrimination to waive that?

Maybe this is what gender discrimination really looks like in the United States.

Barry

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28 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Maybe this is what gender discrimination really looks like in the United States.

Barry

Possibly, both genders equally unhappy about having to wait for the time.  

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Thoroughly disappointing to see the road she's gone down since being given a path to Eagle. I was a support of hers. No longer.

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Well if she wants to be  recognized  as an Eagle for work she done retroactively so she can be the first, I am thinking why not?

 

Then we can go back and retroactively recognize all female Sea Scout Quartermasters, Venturing Silver and Summit recipients as Eagle Scouts and possible the female Explorer Achievement and G.O.L.D. Award recipients if those two awards are comparable. After all, fair is fair.

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On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 2:02 PM, FireStone said:

She put that Life rank on even though the BSA specifically outlined what she would have to do to earn it, and that past activities would not be credited.

I don't think that is true. Per my reading of the GTA, the local Council gets to decide if her work outside of BSA counts.

In other words, if you disagree with her wearing Life rank, then your disagreement should be with the council, not her. She certainly can't wear something not awarded by the adult volunteers.

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6 hours ago, sri_oa161 said:

The real problem is that the work was not done while she was a member of Scouts BSA. 

The GTA is not clear on this point. To quote:

If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive.

The question is whether or not citizenship limits that ability or not. My contention is that it doesn't.

Since the Council has the authority to award rank, up to but not including Eagle, for work done in a foreign scouting association, then it seems that the Council is well within their right to award her Life scout if they deem she has complete equivalent work.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

I don't think that is true. Per my reading of the GTA, the local Council gets to decide if her work outside of BSA counts.

There is much debate on the  their use of the GTA policy. Here it is in full:

5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries

Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here, may register in a BSA unit and participate in advancement. If progress from a foreign Scouting association is to be considered and applied to BSA requirements, then the foreign Scout must meet in person (or over electronic media) with members of the council or district advancement committee, along with at least one adult leader or committee member of the receiving unit. Previous advancement work is reviewed to determine the BSA rank—up to, but not including Eagle Scout rank—the youth is qualified to receive. The candidate must present evidence of membership and advancement from the previous association. Once a rank is determined, it is reported through the BSA’s internet portal for reporting advancement or on an advancement report.

This procedure applies to all ranks except Eagle Scout, which is not considered equivalent to any other association’s rank. If it can be established that Life rank has been achieved, then the council or district advancement committee can determine which BSA merit badges may be awarded based on previous effort and experiences that meet BSA merit badge requirements as written. This may leave a number of additional badges to earn— required or not—to achieve Eagle.

Requirements for active participation, position of responsibility, Scout spirit, the service project, and the unit leader conference must be completed in a BSA unit. This procedure also applies to members of the BSA who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association.

Many point out that whomever granted her Life did it inappropriately as she is not a youth from another country but a US citizen. The key parts of that are "Youth from other countries who temporarily reside in the United States, or have moved here which she did neither.  Further, none of the advancement she did with Scouts Canada should have counted since as as US citizen, she would need to be registered with the BSA in addition to another Scouting association. That is clearly stated in the Guide to Advancement.

At this point, we can all agree it is no longer a matter of equality, or her earning Eagle. rather she wants to be THE first female Eagle.

 

IMHO, if any girls need to get credit towards Eagle, it is the girls in Sea Scouting and Venturing who followed the rules.

 

 

Edited by Eagle94-A1

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8 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

And, I'm sorry, but what advocacy has Sydney or her father done to change the female-only admission policy of the school she attends in NYC? Why is that not discrimination, based on his own statements about equality?

@HashTagScouts, boys can't be discriminated against because they are clearly part of the patriarchy oppressing women.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Since the Council has the authority to award rank, up to but not including Eagle, for work done in a foreign scouting association, then it seems that the Council is well within their right to award her Life scout if they deem she has complete equivalent work.

I'd agree.  That council decided that her work completed in the Canadian Scouting Association warranted recognizing her with a rank of Life.  People can say it should not have happened - but it did.  That decision is done.

Now that she is a Life Scout, she has to wait until October 2020 to be awarded an Eagle rank?  From what I can tell, she's already 18 (or close to it) and asking her to wait means she'll be 19 or 20 before it happens.  I imagine she'll be off at college and far from day to day Scouting when this happens.  This seems like penalizing a youth for adult decisions.  I thought we were not supposed to do that.

All this because the BSA was afraid of some rush for girls to get to Eagle Scout?  I still think it's a dopy reason to have an artifical time restriction.   Just award the girl her Eagle and move on.  Who really cares who the first female Eagle is.  What I care about is that those boys and girls that earn Eagle have a rewarding Scouting experience that helps them grown and develop.

Edited by ParkMan
accidental hit enter too soon. added final thought
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