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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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3 hours ago, willray said:

And I'll add, what about the key term "foreign Scout" in the following paragraph.  This seems to additionally cement the intent of that section to scouts who are not US citizens.

That being said, I am torn.   If a male scout in the US had joined a troop in the US, in 2014, then his parents moved elsewhere and he participated in another country's scouting organization and then moved back here in 2019 and applied to have that experience transferred to back to his US unit, I don't think there'd be any question in my mind about whether that was appropriate.  I know that's not exactly Miss Ireland's path, but it helps me to analyze the edge cases where "I know this is wrong", and "I know this is right", to help narrow down where the crossing point is.

I find the social-engineering being undertaken by Miss Ireland and her parents to be somewhere between unfortunate and despicable, but if Miss Ireland truly loves scouting as much as she claims, I don't see that squashing her enthusiasm is in BSA's best interest either.

I think I'm sticking up for her a little here because I think that is what is largely going on here.  People dislike that she was challenging the status quo and that she had some role in co-ed Scouting.  

3 hours ago, willray said:

I would very much like to know, how she'd answer if someone who wasn't a cheerleader for her, but also wasn't an enemy, sat down with her and had the discussion:  "I know you really would love to be the 'first female Eagle', and you believe that you have performed all the tasks that would be required of any other Eagle candidate.  Do you really think that you being the first, would be fair to all of the other girls who have, over the decades, also done all of this but couldn't be recognized?  You love Scouting, and hold the Scout Oath and Law dear to your heart.  In the context of all of those others, and all the other girls who have similar experiences as you, but don't have the privilege of your voice, do you think it's more Scout-like to try to be the first female Eagle, or, to join in inaugural class of first female Eagles that will be awarded in 2020?"

The fact that she says "I love Scouting, it's my lifeblood, why should I be stuck doing all this Scouting stuff all over again?  Ugh!" leaves me sadly suspicious that I know how that'd turn out, but at least at the moment I'll maintain my fantasies that she actually is what she claims to be.

Food for thought - but your question is telling her that her Scouting experience is less meaningful than that of other scouts.  Why do you think this?  The council advancement committee signed off on her advancement from work in Canada as being equivalent.  Second, she completed many (all?) of the requirements unofficially as a tag along member.  Third, she demonstrated clear leadership in her involvement as part of the process to bring the BSA programs to girls.  It strikes me that there's an argument here that she is more qualified to be an Eagle than the majority of boys who are earning the rank.

I would suggest that posing this question feeds into the kind of nonsense around Eagle that many here decry.  The first female Eagle Scout is no more special than the hundredth, thousandath, or millionth.  

I keep coming back to the same thought.  Why on earth would she waste all this energy - being a tagalong, joining Scouts Canada, lobbying for grls in the BSA, just so that she could become the first female Eagle Scout.  Achieving that gets her a cloth patch and maybe 15 minutes of fame.  Whatever benefit she derives from being the first Eagle Scout is completly eclipsed by her actions in helping to bring about Scouts BSA for girls.

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21 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Food for thought - but your question is telling her that her Scouting experience is less meaningful than that of other scouts.

No, not at all.  It's telling her that the experience of others is not less meaningful than hers.   By pushing to be first she is attempting to declare that her experience is more valuable and worthy than theirs.  I am wondering whether she knows this.

The fact that she's probably better qualified than some of the boys receiving Eagle, says nothing about whether it's appropriate for her to jump to the head of the line.  I see a whole lot of scouts who wear the patch, but never earned the rank.

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30 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I would suggest that posing this question feeds into the kind of nonsense around Eagle that many here decry.  The first female Eagle Scout is no more special than the hundredth, thousandath, or millionth. 

Unfortunately, while this is true for the Boys, it is not true for the Girls.  This is why National has decided that there will be no "first female Eagle", and instead has decided to have a uniform BOR date for the initial "class" of female Eagles.  To make an exception for one scout who happens to have an exceptionally powerful PR apparatus, is an insult to all the other young women who have been excellent scouts in everything but registration status over the past 100 years.

The fact that being "first" matters to Miss Ireland, is, unfortunately, probably one of the most sound reasons to believe that she doesn't actually deserve that honor...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

I keep coming back to the same thought.  Why on earth would she waste all this energy - being a tagalong, joining Scouts Canada, lobbying for grls in the BSA, just so that she could become the first female Eagle Scout.  Achieving that gets her a cloth patch and maybe 15 minutes of fame.  Whatever benefit she derives from being the first Eagle Scout is completly eclipsed by her actions in helping to bring about Scouts BSA for girls.

Over 100 years later we still talk about Arthur Eldred. It would be a lot more than 15 minutes of fame and she knows it.

Edited by FireStone

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1 hour ago, willray said:

Unfortunately, while this is true for the Boys, it is not true for the Girls.  This is why National has decided that there will be no "first female Eagle", and instead has decided to have a uniform BOR date for the initial "class" of female Eagles.  To make an exception for one scout who happens to have an exceptionally powerful PR apparatus, is an insult to all the other young women who have been excellent scouts in everything but registration status over the past 100 years.

Myself, I'd prefer that the BSA not make a big deal out of the first female Eagle, setting dates and processes to prevent the first, or anthing related that.  I tihnk doing so puts Eagle in the wrong light.  I would really prefer a statement that the BSA will not track, report, or acknowledge who the first female is to earn the rank of Eagle.

When I think of being an Eagle Scout, I think the honor come from the process of becoming an Eagle - not the act of completing the requirements.  That any Scout completes the requirements and then waits a year or two seems rather sill to me.  But, if this is what the BSA wants to do then fine.

1 hour ago, willray said:

The fact that being "first" matters to Miss Ireland, is, unfortunately, probably one of the most sound reasons to believe that she doesn't actually deserve that honor...

I don't mind that she has expressed interest in being the first one.  It just says to me that she's ambitious.  I think you've got to be a little ambitious to want to earn Eagle in the first place, so I don't mind that she's got a little extra ambition there.  We're not raising monks - we're helping to develop leaders.  A little ambition in a leader is a good thing.

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38 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I don't mind that she has expressed interest in being the first one.  It just says to me that she's ambitious.  I think you've got to be a little ambitious to want to earn Eagle in the first place, so I don't mind that she's got a little extra ambition there.  We're not raising monks - we're helping to develop leaders.  A little ambition in a leader is a good thing.

I don't mind that she has expressed interest, but I would like to think that if someone put her interest in a proper context, she would see that it's inappropriate to the entire ethos of attaining the rank of Eagle.

And I agree, a bit of ambition is not a bad thing.  Ambition big enough to prioritize yourself far above the needs of others, to the point of engaging in legal action to attempt to accomplish this, is the antithesis of servant leadership.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, willray said:

I don't mind that she has expressed interest, but I would like to think that if someone put her interest in a proper context, she would see that it's inappropriate to the entire ethos of attaining the rank of Eagle.

And I agree, a bit of ambition is not a bad thing.  Ambition big enough to prioritize yourself far above the needs of others, to the point of engaging in legal action to attempt to accomplish this, is the antithesis of servant leadership.

I cannot seem to find a reference where she filed any lawsuits to become an Eagle Scout.  I cannot even seem to find a reference that she filed a lawsuit ot become a member of the Boy Scouts.  Best I can find is that she started a change.org petition and was the subject of several articles.

Further, I can't seem to see anything where she's prioritized herself over the needs of others.  I'm happy to be provided some sources that show this.

But, let's say she did file a lawsuit.  How is pushing for Scouting credit that she honestly believes she earned prioritizing herself over others?  Again, isn't fighting for something you believe is right a sign of a strong leader?  Why would we want any Scout to just sit down and be quiet in a situation like that?  

Edited by ParkMan
typo

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, ParkMan said:

I cannot seem to find a reference where she filed any lawsuits to become an Eagle Scout.  I cannot even seem to find a reference that she filed a lawsuit ot become a member of the Boy Scouts...

Strange that her father's law firm website seems to suggest they were involved, then.

15 hours ago, ParkMan said:

...How is pushing for Scouting credit that she honestly believes she earned prioritizing herself over others?  Again, isn't fighting for something you believe is right a sign of a strong leader?  Why would we want any Scout to just sit down and be quiet in a situation like that?  

Her fight and determination are what I always liked about her. Her involvement in getting the BSA to change the policy on girls is an example of bravery that few adults could ever muster. I wouldn't want that spotlight, that attention, that pressure. 

I don't want scouts to be quiet in the face of something they believe should be different. But there's a right and wrong way to approach those issues. My support for Sydney ceased when she got what she wanted and it still wasn't good enough because it wasn't on her terms. The BSA gave her a path to Eagle. She wanted something different. 

While I would encourage any scout to speak up for something they believe in, I would also have to encourage them to accept the outcome if they try to change something and it doesn't go exactly as they would like it to. They can't always win. Sometimes you fight and lose, or fight and get something a little different than what you wanted, and sometimes that's as far as the fight should go. 

Sydney fought hard and won a huge victory for girls in the BSA. She should be proud of that. What I find disrespectful about her actions now is that she has essentially decided to just do things her way regardless of what the BSA says. She put that Life rank on even though the BSA specifically outlined what she would have to do to earn it, and that past activities would not be credited. They didn't say she can't be an Eagle Scout. They outlined what she would have to do to earn the rank, and she said no, I'll do it my own way.

I admire her determination, I really do. I wrote letters to BSA National in support of her. But I greatly dislike what has transpired since the policy change, and her refusal to accept fair terms from the BSA on how she could reach her goal. 

Edited by FireStone
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2 hours ago, FireStone said:

Strange that her father's law firm website seems to suggest they were involved, then.

Her fight and determination are what I always liked about her. Her involvement in getting the BSA to change the policy on girls is an example of bravery that few adults could ever muster. I wouldn't want that spotlight, that attention, that pressure. 

I don't want scouts to be quiet in the face of something they believe should be different. But there's a right and wrong way to approach those issues. My support for Sydney ceased when she got what she wanted and it still wasn't good enough because it wasn't on her terms. The BSA gave her a path to Eagle. She wanted something different. 

While I would encourage any scout to speak up for something they believe in, I would also have to encourage them to accept the outcome if they try to change something and it doesn't go exactly as they would like it to. They can't always win. Sometimes you fight and lose, or fight and get something a little different than what you wanted, and sometimes that's as far as the fight should go. 

Sydney fought hard and won a huge victory for girls in the BSA. She should be proud of that. What I find disrespectful about her actions now is that she has essentially decided to just do things her way regardless of what the BSA says. She put that Life rank on even though the BSA specifically outlined what she would have to do to earn it, and that past activities would not be credited. They didn't say she can't be an Eagle Scout. They outlined what she would have to do to earn the rank, and she said no, I'll do it my own way.

I admire her determination, I really do. I wrote letters to BSA National in support of her. But I greatly dislike what has transpired since the policy change, and her refusal to accept fair terms from the BSA on how she could reach her goal. 

Thanks for the pointer about her father's website.  I read the text there and it sounds like he's taking credit for it.  Seems to be positioning himself as a advocate for civil rights.  I imagine you can do that through influence and activism and avoid lawsuits.  I don't recall hearing that in the case of the BSA that change happened because of lawsuits - but again, if someone can point to a reference, I'm happy to learn here.

On Sydney - I understand what you're saying.  If I have this correctly, you dislike that she pursued finding a way to get credit for her Scouting activities prior to becoming an "officially registered" member of Scouts BSA.  It was one thing to ask for gender equality - another thing to push for a special exception for girls now joining.  Fair point.

I guess I don't mind so much that she lobbied and eventually found a way to get some back credit.  Yeah, it's probably unfair to the legions of girls who won't be able to do the same.  But, I'm sympathetic to the argument that "Hey, in a time where I was an unofficial member, I did all this stuff.  Why do I need to do it all over again, and in the process, delay achieving the rank of Eagle?"   If it were my daughter, I can imagine a similar conversation.  In my family, we'd have accepted the results and moved on.  But, he family is more familar with advocating for stuff like this and so they pursued it.  Again, unfair?  Sure, probably.   But, she does have enough of a point that I'm not going to criticize her from pursuing it.  Instead I'd tell her - go for it, maybe you'll win, maybe you won't, but it's a fair arugment to make.  

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2019 at 10:45 AM, willray said:

 @Kudu would be proud, we had 100-yard separation between the patrols, and the adults stayed out of their campsites except when they needed emergency help with things like putting out flaming frying pans they forgot on the stove 🙂

Very proud, indeed! 😎

Kudu

Flaming Fry Pan Patrol

Edited by desertrat77
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21 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

@Kudu, good to see you!

And you as well!

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39 minutes ago, Kudu said:

And you as well!

Hey @Kudu! You should stop by more often! We miss hearing from you. I hope you are doing well!

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