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Jameson76

Interesting observation - rank advancement

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You might be correct in your interpretation of the G2A, but, the BSA also published Implementation Details for First-Time Members Entering Scouts BSA that includes the following:

Quote

Q: Can troops, districts or councils amend or adjust the requirements/process?

No. Eagle Scout requirements are set by the National Council and cannot be adjusted by a troop, district or council. In fact, the Eagle Scout rank is earned when it is approved by the National Council.

Q: Will work completed while girls participated unofficially before the introduction of Scouts BSA count towards Eagle requirements?

No. To preserve the integrity of the Eagle Scout Award, all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Guide to Advancement, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements).

Q: Will work that female Venturers or Sea Scouts completed count toward Eagle Scout requirements?

To preserve the integrity of the Eagle Scout Award, all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Advancement Guide, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements).

The intent seems pretty clear. 

So, we had a standard G2A, then we made an exception because of extraordinary circumstances, then the rules for the exception became inconvenient for one particularly high-profile girl, so now we're arguing that we should apply a broad interpretation of the original standard in this one particular case because she's an exception to the exception to the standard?  Where exactly does that process end?

I'd like to believe some really smart people sat in a room talking and thinking through this process.  However, it looks more like our "leadership" is careening from crisis to crisis hoping not to crash.  It's embarrassing.  

P.S. You can get to the document via the Family Scouting page if you want a better source than the link provided above.  The emphasis above is mine.

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3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Why her SE is allowing her to wear a Life rank I can only think it is threat of lawsuit, despite her not meeting criteria UNLESS she is a Canadian citizen residing in NY.

Perhaps she was wearing her brother's shirt and her SE was out of the loop?

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1 hour ago, Hawkwin said:

I think people are conflating different portions of the G2A. I will quote the individual sentences in order.

5.0.4.0 Youth From Other Countries

This section clearly allows for non-citizens to join BSA.

This section clearly states that prior progress made in another scouting organization may be considered and recognized by the council (note, this is not a call made by Nationals - the authority to recognize resides with the council)....

Someone replying to Bryan's blog did me the favor of quoting that section in full, and the last paragraph says:

Quote

Requirements for active participation, position of responsibility, Scout spirit, the service project, and the unit leader conference must be completed in a BSA unit. This procedure also applies to members of the BSA who, while living abroad, have earned advancement in another Scouting association."

Which means the bottom line of GTA 5.0.4.0, provides a is multi-pronged denial of any form of high speed low drag.

It explicitly says for any scout coming from overseas (be she a citizen of the US or Canada or elsewhere), the following requirements must be be completed in a BSA unit:

  • Active participation: That includes the T2FC activity and outdoor ethics requirements which stipulate since joining Scouts BSA, which for young women was not possible until Feb 1.
  • Position of responsibility: for Eagle, that's at least 16 months in office after earning 1st class.
  • Unit Leader Conference: all six must be done after completing the previous rank while working on the next.
  • Scout Spirit: Why scout spirit on foreign soil doesn't count is a mystery to me. My best guess is that such enthusiasm should be recognized by an award from that country. And to give two awards for the same activity seems like double-dipping to some.
  • Service project: Again the closest I can think is that service projects under the auspices of other WOSM organizations should be recognized by that organization and not BSA.

In other words, even if you've acquired the skills overseas, a scout must do the time in a BSA unit to receive a BSA award.

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43 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Perhaps she was wearing her brother's shirt and her SE was out of the loop?

Please. You have been a moderator a very long time and monitor these threads—particularly the Ireland threads. You know her  Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair and CC from her Boy Scouts of America troop routinely submitted advancement paperwork to their NY council—knowing full well it would be rejected but doing so anyway. Then the troop presented her with all of the awards and paperwork anyway. That’s why she claims she is an “unofficial Life Scout.” Her troop claims she has done all the work but won’t be recognized by her council or national.

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7 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Please. You have been a moderator a very long time and monitor these threads—particularly the Ireland threads. You know her  Scoutmaster, Advancement Chair and CC from her Boy Scouts of America troop routinely submitted advancement paperwork to their NY council—knowing full well it would be rejected but doing so anyway. Then the troop presented her with all of the awards and paperwork anyway. That’s why she claims she is an “unofficial Life Scout.” Her troop claims she has done all the work but won’t be recognized by her council or national.

And Dad's a lawyer, so that helps to grease the wheels

From his Law firm website - interesting the mention of girls and women in Boy Scouts is on the home page

With the guidance of the Law Offices of Gary Ireland, you can maximize income and benefits when joining a company, enhance severance, and if necessary assert rights when leaving. Gary Ireland also works with clients who are seeking to start companies – with his help you can save money and solve legal problems by making smarter business decisions while limiting risk. And Gary is active as an advocate for inclusion and non-discrimination - currently working to enable girls and young women to participate at all of levels of scouting within the Boy Scouts of America.

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1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

No. To preserve the integrity of the Eagle Scout Award, all requirements must be completed while the individual is a registered member of Scouts BSA, or after achieving the First-Class Rank in Scouts BSA (as specified in the BSA Guide to Advancement, an individual after earning First Class Rank in Scouts BSA may transfer primary membership to Venturing or Sea Scouts and continue to work on Eagle Scout requirements).

What you quoted is not contrary to what I quoted. She must complete the requirement of Eagle after achieving the First Class rank as specified in G2A.

I post in support of her council recognizing her prior work in granting her First Class.

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18 minutes ago, qwazse said:

In other words, even if you've acquired the skills overseas, a scout must do the time in a BSA unit to receive a BSA award.

Again, my reply was in support of her being recognized as having completed the work for 1st Class. I stated nothing about Eagle - and the G2A seems rather clear on that point, regardless of citizenship or prior service in any other organization.

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5 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

And Dad's a lawyer, so that helps to grease the wheels

From his Law firm website - interesting the mention of girls and women in Boy Scouts is on the home page

With the guidance of the Law Offices of Gary Ireland, you can maximize income and benefits when joining a company, enhance severance, and if necessary assert rights when leaving. Gary Ireland also works with clients who are seeking to start companies – with his help you can save money and solve legal problems by making smarter business decisions while limiting risk. And Gary is active as an advocate for inclusion and non-discrimination - currently working to enable girls and young women to participate at all of levels of scouting within the Boy Scouts of America.

Can we PLEASE get off this kick of trying to impugn her father, and by extension (and sometime outright) the scout? It is really really ugly and I would hope we are both better than that and that we can discuss our positions intelligently without turning to logical fallacies about a person's perceived motives.

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4 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Can we PLEASE get off this kick of trying to impugn her father, and by extension (and sometime outright) the scout? It is really really ugly and I would hope we are both better than that and that we can discuss our positions intelligently without turning to logical fallacies about a person's perceived motives.

Not impugning (def: dispute the truth, validity, or honesty of (a statement or motive); call into question)  at all, just noting what is on his public website.  

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15 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

call into question

Suggesting that he "greesed the wheels" is to imply he did something less than ethical. It calls into question his character and motives.

Another comment (not from you) stated that he was a "rich lawyer" (class envy?!?) and that he "shamelessly exploited loopholes." Again, impugning character.

 

I think we can discuss the merits of her situation without calling into question the motivations of her father or herself for that matter.

 

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31 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Suggesting that he "greesed the wheels" is to imply he did something less than ethical.

That term can be used to suggest something unethical or something helpful.  Not sure how Jameson76 intended it, I'll take him at his word, but it's clear what you inferred from the comment.

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11 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

but it's clear what you inferred from the comment.

Yes. Context.

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This whole Scouts Canada thing is an attempt to exploit a loophole: trying to join BSA, and now Scouts BSA as a former "youth from another country." This isn't about doing "Scout-y" things because if it were, she could have joining Venturing. In all of their orchestrated press conferences, TV appearances, guest editorials, etc. first dad Gary and then Sydney beat the Eagle Scout drum. Dad Gary repeatedly said words to the effect that "Eagle Scout is something you put on your resume. It gets you into good colleges and gets you good jobs." These people are the Kardashians of Scouting--they never met a camera they didn't like if it gets them attention.

And yes, being rich provides you with the means to do things like routinely travel 500 miles to Canada so daughter can participate in Scouts Canada.

 

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2 hours ago, Hawkwin said:

Again, my reply was in support of her being recognized as having completed the work for 1st Class. I stated nothing about Eagle - and the G2A seems rather clear on that point, regardless of citizenship or prior service in any other organization.

We were talking about a particular scout wearing a life patch. And speculating weather time scouting in Canada prior to enrolling in Scouts BSA would be a pretext for doing so. The answer: not until May 2020. Perhaps a smidge earlier if one thinks councils should honor fitness logs done overseas. However all of those logs would have been contingent on being Scouts BSA eligible, which no female scout was. On this the G2A and currently announced polices are unambiguous.

The grey area would only exist for female scouts overseas beginning this February. And if a female scout dropped in my crew last week, and based on discussions with her SM, she was first class in concept -- if not the patch, I would lean on my district advancement chair very heavily to accord her that rank so she could start advancement to Star forthwith. But, the last line of GTA 5.0.4.0 is unambiguous that she would have to start her participation count, not on Feb 1, but as of last week. Therefore, I would have to find her a troop and risk loosing her to that set of girls because, if she is indeed a first class scout, the opportunity to mentor these newbies might just be too good to let pass.

Bottom line: not officially active stateside = not advancing.

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7 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

I think that's the crux of the issue for me.  We were told nothing was going to change program-wise and we have well documented rules for advancement.  We were told no prior credit would be given.  Then the exceptions started.  Extensions for Eagle, waving the FC requirement for girls for the WSJ, etc.   In this case the rules are being folded, spindled, and mutilated for one high-profile scout.  It is embarrassing. 

First, there was no waiving of FC rank for WSJ, because there was never a rank requirement. Only an age requirement. That goes back to literature I received prior to and at the 2017 NSJ. 

IN fact Ms. Ireland used the argument that BSA was blocking girls from attending because they would not have time to earn FC. As I pointed out at the time, she was wrong. 

As for waivers, I was initially opposed. In hindsight, I think it is a positive. Not because of Ms. Ireland or girls like her. But because of all the young ladies that are Venturers and joining Scouts BSA. They are providing a good deal of leadership and experience and making the program better. Without their influence I am convinced we would see a program that is more adult led and less about the outdoor experience. 

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