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fred8033

Eliminate the Eagle application?

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7 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Maybe.  Not every kid is going to fit into a waterfall project management scheme with equal ease.  What if the kid is more at home with an agile style of project work?  If that's the case then I would expect a "poor" project workbook.  Not because the kid did anything wrong, it just doesn't fit his way of thinking.  I'd also argue there are way better tools that might be more applicable to youth today.  Why fill out a PDF (how 90s) when there are online project management tools available?

I wasn't trying to comment on the project workbook.  There's lots of good and bad in any choice.  I'm glad to have the workbook constrains the hoops scouts have to jump.  The past had too many paperwork abuses.  Plus, the workbook is hardly a waterfall structure.  It more just solicits the basic questions that come with any project.  

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8 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Have you sat on an EBOR?  If not, I would suggest you do.  It is a great time to talk with the boy about what they were thinking, what went well, what didn't, and how they performed leadership on the project.  It is a discussion not an inquisition.

I've sat on many.  In most cases my experience was the adults in the room were so focused on the minutia of the project workbook that they totally missed the kid sitting in front of them.  I've even seen an adult scouring the pictures in a project workbook looking for G2SS violations.  While I agree the project could be a good starting point for a discussion my experience is it is used as the only point for discussion.  I'm way more interested in hearing about the kid's entire scouting experience rather than the last two months of it.

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I wasn't trying to comment on the project workbook.  There's lots of good and bad in any choice.  I'm glad to have the workbook constrains the hoops scouts have to jump.  The past had too many paperwork abuses.  Plus, the workbook is hardly a waterfall structure.  It more just solicits the basic questions that come with any project.  

I'd argue the workbook provides way too many hoops to jump through.  And I think it is an anachronism.  Even in the small rural school district my son attended, all their class assignments and such were done online.  There are a lot of free online project management systems out there.  The clients run on the scouts phones, they can snap pictures and upload directly, enter information as it's happening, use online calendars, etc.  If part of the project is intended to help them prepare for the work world then we should be using tools the scouts will actually encounter in life.  Not to mention how much easier it would be to review online without generating binders full of paper and driving to meetings, etc.  I'm not saying do away with the workbook for those that want it, but that we should let the kids choose the tools they want to use.

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2 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

I'd argue the workbook provides way too many hoops to jump through.  And I think it is an anachronism.  Even in the small rural school district my son attended, all their class assignments and such were done online.  There are a lot of free online project management systems out there.  The clients run on the scouts phones, they can snap pictures and upload directly, enter information as it's happening, use online calendars, etc.  If part of the project is intended to help them prepare for the work world then we should be using tools the scouts will actually encounter in life.  Not to mention how much easier it would be to review online without generating binders full of paper and driving to meetings, etc.  I'm not saying do away with the workbook for those that want it, but that we should let the kids choose the tools they want to use.

I don't view the PDF workbook as a preparation for the real world.  I view it as a constraint to control previous paperwork process abuses.  Though it has hoops, the three page proposal s about as short as I've seen.  The plan and report are pretty short too.  The key point is the workbook is not the learning objective.  The key is that the developing, planning and leading a project is the requirement.  The paperwork is an enabler to the process, but not the requirement itself or even the core learning objective.  

I'd agree that an online system would be better.   I'd be glad if we could upgrade.  But still I'm happy with what we have.  It's way better than the pre-2011 situation.  And this PDF in a printed version could still be available for those scouts not fully online ... which is amazingly not as rare I I thought it would be.   

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2 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

I've sat on many.  In most cases my experience was the adults in the room were so focused on the minutia of the project workbook that they totally missed the kid sitting in front of them.  I've even seen an adult scouring the pictures in a project workbook looking for G2SS violations.  While I agree the project could be a good starting point for a discussion my experience is it is used as the only point for discussion.  I'm way more interested in hearing about the kid's entire scouting experience rather than the last two months of it.

I'm sad when I see that happen.  Our current EBOR chair does a great job as keeping the focus on getting to know the scout.  It's great to see that.  I have seen previous EBORs have the wrong tone that really alienated people.

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Posted (edited)

Maybe get two birds with one stone by adding on form:

This form is to be completed by Eagle Advisor. If Eagle candidate has no advisor, this form need not be completed.

;)

Edited by RememberSchiff

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3 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

I've sat on many.  In most cases my experience was the adults in the room were so focused on the minutia of the project workbook that they totally missed the kid sitting in front of them.  I've even seen an adult scouring the pictures in a project workbook looking for G2SS violations.  While I agree the project could be a good starting point for a discussion my experience is it is used as the only point for discussion.  I'm way more interested in hearing about the kid's entire scouting experience rather than the last two months of it.

The fault with that is the person on the board rather than the form.  The conversation should cover the entire career in scouting.   It sounds like the Advancement chair for your district needs to talk with the adults on the EBOR about what to focus on and what not to do.

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1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

Maybe get two birds with one stone by adding on form:

This form is to be completed by Eagle Advisor. If Eagle candidate has no advisor, this form need not be completed.

;)

@RememberSchiff we all know the whole point of the application and the workbook is to make life easier for adults. 

If we wanted to make it a better experience for the scout, these would be pages in his handbook, which he would fill out and submit personally, or ... take pictures of and send to council.

They could also be fields in Scoutbook ... the whole thing (spare us the pictures) could be plain text.

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We determined in our district that the workbook is optional, but encouraged.  We went round and round on it, but in the end no text in hte G2A showed that it had to be completed and so we deemed it optional.

On a general Eagle application form - I don't think it's terirble that there is a specific form for this - even if the fields are redundant. There are a ton of times in life that Scouts will have to complete a form.  They will also have to document successful completion of projects as well.  Given the big deal that is earning Eagle, it doesn't see unreasonable that they have a form for this.  I fully agree though that the form ought to be online so as to move it expeditiously through the approval process.  

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1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

We determined in our district that the workbook is optional, but encouraged.  We went round and round on it, but in the end no text in hte G2A showed that it had to be completed and so we deemed it optional.

I really meant this thread to be discussion on the assertion that we could eliminate the Eagle application.  It's just not needed anymore.  

But ... you wrote "no text in the G2A showed hat it had to be completed and so we deemed it optional".  I fear this is a stretch interpretation.  The G2A flexibility is dealing with scouts that don't follow the required process and go off on a tangent.  My interpretation is your district is using the BSA G2A remedy for a Eagle application defective situation as your district normal.   (defective in that the scout does not submit a project workbook with signatures on the proposal and report).  

BSA does say ...

  • BSA GTA 9.0.1.2 Prepare the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook ... "The most current workbook must be used. It can be found at www.scouting.org/advancement. The workbook shows the project proposal was approved ahead of time, and then properly accepted by all parties when finished."
  • BSA 9.0.1.3 Complete the Application ... "Pay special attention to the following red-flag items. .... 6. Attachments: Service project workbook"
  • BSA 9.0.2.0 The Eagle Scout Service Project ... "You must use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927, in meeting this requirement."
  • BSA GTA 9.0.2.8 Use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook ... "While the use of the workbook is required"
  • BSA GTA 9.0.2.8 Use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook ... call out on page 70 ... "The requirement that Scouts use the Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook means they must use the official document as produced by the Boy Scouts of America. Although it is acceptable to copy and distribute it, and even to transfer it to a different software platform or operating system, it must maintain the same appearance. No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to require additional forms, or to add or change requirements, or to make any additions, deletions, or changes in the text, outlines, graphics, or other layout or informational elements of the workbook"

I really don't think BSA could write it any more clear that the workbook is required.  Not using it is a defective situation that BSA has provided remedies for supporting the scout.  Now the scout can hand in a blank Eagle workbook except the signatures.  The signatures are REQUIRED to prove the proposal was done before the project and the report signatures mean the project fulfilled commitments.  

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I'm so  over these project workbooks and applications. It's ridiculous. I wish they would give me a shot at reworking the project workbook. I could  do it in two pages and it would contain the exact same information. I reached out to National a couple of times. But hey, what does an Eagle Scout who serves on EBORs and is a technical writer know about rewriting Boy Scout forms? 

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4 minutes ago, CherokeeScouter said:

I'm so  over these project workbooks and applications. It's ridiculous. I wish they would give me a shot at reworking the project workbook. I could  do it in two pages and it would contain the exact same information. I reached out to National a couple of times. But hey, what does an Eagle Scout who serves on EBORs and is a technical writer know about rewriting Boy Scout forms? 

Oh, and I would have ONE signature page for the entire project.

 

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1 hour ago, CherokeeScouter said:

Oh, and I would have ONE signature page for the entire project.

You rebel!

Simplified workbook....ONE signature page....where does the insanity end?

Next thing we know, you'll be advocating that EBORs focus on the SUBSTANCE of a scout's project and recognizing their SUCCESS after a long road to Eagle instead of their time-honored practice of spotlighting typos in the application and worrying about whether or not National updated the workbook version number.

After all, what life lesson could possibly be more important than perfect paperwork?

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