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Tatung42

Youth Protection Clarification Question

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Posted (edited)

Lets say a patrol leader wants to have a patrol meeting at his house.  The patrol's fully trained ASM adviser will be there as well as the patrol leader's mother.  The patrol leader's mother has taken youth protection, but she is not a registered member of the BSA.  This is a youth protection violation right?

Now lets say that nothing changes, expect that the patrol leader's mother pays national $33 to become a committee member.   Now this is perfectly ok?

I just want to insure that I am understanding how the rules work correctly. (yes that is a snarky tone that you detect in my question)

 

 

Edited by Tatung42

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Define "work correctly."

I consider working correctly to be fulfilling vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates. So under today's strictures, to work correctly, a patrol would have a non-BSA meeting absent adults, develop a plan for an overnight camp-out, have a caring adult (sometimes called an SM) review the plan, improve the plan until it's approved, implement the plan (which, given two registered adults of the desired sexes would be a BSA campout, otherwise not), return and meet with other patrols (sometimes called a troop meeting), and report results. Given available adults this may count for rank advancement, otherwise it fulfills aforementioned vision.

BSA considers working correctly to be keeping lawyers at bay while maintaining robust professional staff. So there, you would spend the cost of a couple of scouts' weekend camping to register your mom, only meet/camp/hike when requisite adults are available. This will result in 10% or more of your scouts being recognized with Eagle in any given year, at the cost of 40% of your scouts who could care less about such things and care more about pursuing a different vision of working correctly.

With or without you BSA, what will it be?

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3 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

I just want to insure that I am understanding how the rules work correctly. (yes that is a snarky tone that you detect in my question)

Your understanding of YPT is correct.

However, she could save the $33 and register as a Merit Badge Counselor.

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A YPTrained and registered BSA Scouter, an adult parent with YP cert, in the parent's home, with many Scouts in the rec room planning  adventures.....

The Adults are upstairs visiting over herbal tea and crumpets.   I say no violation.  Cancel the Scout911 call. 

I also recommend the Scout Parent register as a MBCounselor.  Every Troop/District needs more. Pick a couple of subjects you are interested in , have skill in....   Ya can't go wrong.... 

You fill out three pieces of paper, take some online training (YPT, This Is Scouting,  MBCounselor ) and then you can schedule your MB's as you will:   Whenever they call me,  on a particular weekend,  in the District's "MB College".   Easy. 

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Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader.

I would say that the above Q&A isn't designed to cover only the enumerated activities of Fundraising and MB Counseling but is instead intended to cover situations that are outside of the standard troop meeting or campout, so yes what you describe fits within the parameters of acceptable YPT guidance.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

Q:  The Barriers to Abuse say that there must be two registered adults present for all Scouting activities and meetings.  Does that include merit badge counseling? Fund-raising events?

A. Yes. However, the parent or legal guardian of the Scout may serve as the second adult. This parent or legal guardian does not have to be a registered leader.

I would say that the above Q&A isn't designed to cover only the enumerated activities of Fundraising and MB Counseling but is instead intended to cover situations that are outside of the standard troop meeting or campout, so yes what you describe fits within the parameters of acceptable YPT guidance.

I read this differently.  If it was a meeting of one scout with an ASM then I'd agree.  Once you start to add in other scouts, I think  you need a parent of each scout there.

You could have:

  • ASM, patrol leaders mom (registered in any position), 6 scouts
  • ASM, 6 parents, 6 scouts

I don't think you could have:

  • the ASM, patrol leaders mom (currently unregisterd), and six scouts. 

 

Edited by ParkMan
clarified the idea
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Thank you for the replies.  I like the merit badge counselor idea.

This brings me another question.  What about a Lion Den?  Every scout is there with their adult partner (most of whom have taken YP), and there is one fully trained Den Leader.  This setup is clearly a violation because "A Lion or Tiger adult partner is not considered a registered leader for meeting two-deep leadership requirements".

We could get one of the adult partners to register as a merit badge counselor to fulfill youth protection requirements?

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Though I think the same principle could apply, at some point we're taking the comment about merit badge and fundraising a little far.  I think it works in the patrol case because it's a similar scenario.  A meetnig of Scouts with an adult outside the normal meeting structure. 

Could you have a den meeting with one adult where every parent attended?  I suppose yes, but I don't think that's the original intent.  An official Lion den meeting is dis-similar enough that I don't think I'd recommend applying it there.

I would suggest the if you've got a Lion den with a bunch of parents, you probably ought to sign up two as assistant den leaders anyways.  In this new paradigim, I think a den really needs three registered leaders just to consitently be able to get two there.  Might as well start that in the Lion year.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Tatung42 said:

Lets say a patrol leader wants to have a patrol meeting at his house.  The patrol's fully trained ASM adviser will be there as well as the patrol leader's mother.  The patrol leader's mother has taken youth protection, but she is not a registered member of the BSA.  This is a youth protection violation right?

Now lets say that nothing changes, expect that the patrol leader's mother pays national $33 to become a committee member.   Now this is perfectly ok?

I just want to insure that I am understanding how the rules work correctly. (yes that is a snarky tone that you detect in my question)

 

 

Your understanding is correct.  However since she isn't registered she's not bound by the G2SS rules.  So, as  long as the ASM isn't present the Patrol can meet as a group of friends to play video games and if they happen to talk scouting along the way it's all a-ok.

Edited by walk in the woods

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40 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Your understanding is correct.  However since she isn't registered she's not bound by the G2SS rules.  So, as  long as the ASM isn't present the Patrol can meet as a group of friends to play video games and if they happen to talk scouting along the way it's all a-ok.

I want to backpedal a bit on what I said earlier. If you want to care about the rules, you have to work in your district. Ask your DE if registering the mom as a merit-badge counsel is a good long term way to deal with this. Let's face it, if this patrol is any good, they'll want to meet often, and you want to be sure you encourage that to the best of your fellow adults' ability. But to make this work in the traditional way, you all have to figure out how you can be present, but invisible as often as the boys will need to gather.

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Here's another scenario....

The Patrol Leader tells his Patrol, to heck with this,  meet me at the Starbucks…..   Parents drop off, (or the Scouts walk/bike) come back two hours later.....

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SSScout said:

Here's another scenario....

The Patrol Leader tells his Patrol, to heck with this,  meet me at the Starbucks…..   Parents drop off, (or the Scouts walk/bike) come back two hours later.....

I get asked this all the time regarding sports. Can the boys on a team get together for an unsanctioned practice. My answer is no. If they do it, they can be kicked off the team. The school could be penalized.

It is the same way when I was on the school board. Can we get together at Starbucks, have a cup of coffee, and chat about the weather? Yes, but we couldn't talk business. If we did, it would be a serious breach of the Open Meetings Act. We would be breaking the law.

I have a relative who is subject to the insider trading laws. He has to be very careful about talking about business outside of work.

I would be very concerned if I had scouts/parents who were trying to get around the rules like that. It would not be teaching the boys the right values and habits.  I want them to learn good habits to take with them into the adult world.

I sympathize with those who are frustrated with the tangled web of rules being put out by BSA. I also support the right of Chartered Organizations to confront/oppose BSA on some of these rules. But don't be sneaky about it. Sneakiness is not an attractive character trait.

Edited by David CO
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The difference between sports, school board, trading, etc ... and a patrol is their objective. The former have a very public objective with lots of public accountability. The objective of a patrol includes 1) fellowship and 2) independence. The role of caring adults being present, based on its location, is protection from abuse.

So, does @SSScout's suggestion minimize abuse? Maybe if the coffee shop managers are registered scouters?

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I said it when the new YPT rules came out, and I will say it again, the new rules have killed the Patrol Method.  

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On 3/9/2019 at 3:02 AM, Tatung42 said:

Lets say a patrol leader wants to have a patrol meeting at his house.  The patrol's fully trained ASM adviser will be there as well as the patrol leader's mother.  The patrol leader's mother has taken youth protection, but she is not a registered member of the BSA.  This is a youth protection violation right?

Now lets say that nothing changes, expect that the patrol leader's mother pays national $33 to become a committee member.   Now this is perfectly ok?

I just want to insure that I am understanding how the rules work correctly. (yes that is a snarky tone that you detect in my question)

 

 

Has YPT changed since this summer?  

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