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Cubmaster Pete

Can a CO profit off a unit?

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A sportsman's club.   What kind of sports? Hunting? Fishing? Hockey? Croquet?    Maybe there are possible Scouters among the membership?   Has that  been broached?  Isaac Walton League here abouts  has always been very Scout friendly, for instance.   They allow their grounds  for Cub Scout Day Camp, Archery Camp,  Rifle and Shotgun Merit Badge camps,  many things Scouty.

If yours is to serve brats and sodas, make the most of it.  Scout PR,  a demo campout, PineWood Derby, whatever.   It could be a win win for both of you.   Perhaps the membership is aging and no longer able to keep up the traditional stuff.   New members from the Scouts or Scouters eventually?  Involve the local Scout District too.  Make your situation known more widely, see if there are other Scout units might want to help out,  who knows.   

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There is a lot to unpack here.

Can a CO make the request & make profit from the fundraiser? Yes

Can the Unit decline? Yes. While the CO owns the Unit, it is NOT the unit. The Scouts and Volunteers are the unit. 

We routinely do service projects for our CO, and many of our Eagle Project benefit the CO, but there is no Quid Pro Quo involved. 

I also wonder how this request potentially impacts the program. Will it replace a meeting night once a month? Is it on a school night? If it is on the weekend, what happens when the "service" conflicts with a Camporee, Merit badge college, Summer camp or other event? What are the repercussions when most/all of the troop is tied up in non-scouting activities, like sporting event, Chorus, school talent show or science fair?

What happens when the same 10 people grow weary of the monthly commitment to raising money for another organization, to which they have little or no attachment?

Frankly, having been a member of Sporting Clubs, it seems like an odd request. I paid dues to belong. Concessions fell under one of two categories. One was a permanent concession run by an outside vendor for profit, the clubs benefit was having concessions. The other was concessions for events, which were usually outside groups like high school bands, clubs or Scouts that kept the proceeds for themselves.  

This really sounds like the CO (or some members of its board) has soured on the relationship and is looking for a way to justify keeping it. 

The whole thing feels like a slippery slope toward a bad ending. But that is just my opinion. 

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7 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

While the CO owns the Unit, it is NOT the unit. 

I disagree. The unit is a subset of the CO. 

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6 hours ago, David CO said:

I disagree. The unit is a subset of the CO. 

I disagree. If set x is a subset of y, then all elements of x are in y. If the unit is subset of the CO, then all members of the unit must be members of the CO. In most cases there are members of the unit who are not members of the CO, in some cases members of the unit cannot be members of the CO. Thus a unit is not a subset of the CO. Now if you meant the unit sometimes is a subsidiary program of the CO, then I agree.

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This is semantics - but I would submit that technically @David CO is correct.  The CO pays the BSA for the right to run a BSA Scout program as part of the CO's larger offereings.  So, unit is as much a part of the CO as a youth group, youth choir, or sunday school class would be.  If the CO is not a church, then subsitite a similar group within that CO.  The CO has the choice to closely manage the unit or to loosly manage the unit - but it's the COs choice.  Further, the could require that all members of the unit are members of the CO too - but I don't think anyone does that.

If I were to guess, 95% (if not more) of units are loosly managed - so they feel very much like what you descibre @DuctTape.  So, in reality the situation that you describe if what normally happens.  But, technically the structure is setup as @David CO describes.

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Park, which is why I said "subsidiary program" as opposed to subset. The words have very different technical meanings. You can call it semantics if you'd like, but then you cannot say he was "technically correct". 

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Why can't I saw that?  @David CO's point was correct.

Principally the agreement between the CO & the BSA allows the CO to use the program of the BSA so that it can put on it's own Scouting program.  The BSA ensures consistency of program, but the indvidual units are extensions of the CO.

I read subset and I think of it to mean that the unit is a part of the CO's program and that organizationally they are both part of the same team delivering the program of the CO.  Subsidiary by suggests a seperate entity that is merely controlled by the CO.  While in practice that may happen, everything I've heard about the CO/unit relationship suggests a tighter bond is intended.

So technically I believe the original point was correct.  That we as Scouters should be thinking about how we can contribute to the mission of the CO - and not a completely seperate group that happens to get some space from the CO.

Edited by ParkMan
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7 hours ago, DuctTape said:

If the unit is subset of the CO, then all members of the unit must be members of the CO. In most cases there are members of the unit who are not members of the CO, in some cases members of the unit cannot be members of the CO. 

Not all students at my Catholic school are Catholic. Some belong to other churches. This doesn't mean that they don't belong. The school is a part of our parish and church, and the non-Catholic students are part of it.

The same is true of our scout units. 

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17 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I disagree. If set x is a subset of y, then all elements of x are in y. If the unit is subset of the CO, then all members of the unit must be members of the CO.

I would argue that the act of joining our scout unit makes him a member of our CO. He may not be Catholic, but he is still one of us. He belongs.

 

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13 hours ago, DuctTape said:

Park, which is why I said "subsidiary program" as opposed to subset. The words have very different technical meanings. You can call it semantics if you'd like, but then you cannot say he was "technically correct". 

Catholics believe the Church includes everyone, even those who do not believe. Technically, we feel that everyone belongs with us. God doesn't love just the registered parishioners.

 

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19 minutes ago, David CO said:

I would argue that the act of joining our scout unit makes him a member of our CO. He may not be Catholic, but he is still one of us. He belongs.

 

Do you tell your unit’s Scouts that? It’s a very broad, sweeping statement that is not supported by the Scouting program.

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25 minutes ago, David CO said:

Catholics believe the Church includes everyone, even those who do not believe. Technically, we feel that everyone belongs with us. God doesn't love just the registered parishioners.

 

11 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Do you tell your unit’s Scouts that? It’s a very broad, sweeping statement that is not supported by the Scouting program.

We tell our scouts that the CO (a Presbyterian church) considers the troop to be their ministry. As such, we help set up some of their activities/fundraisers with no thought as to money being exchanged. They make sure that there are extra doughnuts on Scoit Sunday. Everybody wins.

Edited by qwazse
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My church has a program for the homeless - I attend a large urban church downtown in our community.  To come and participate in that homeless outreach program you don't have to be a member of the church.  To volunteer, you don't have to be a member of the church.  You just come help.  Yet, no one would suggest that this homeless outreach program isn't a part of the church's program.

I think we're too hung up on the question of CO membership here.  I grew up in a different faith, but my wife & I decided to celebrate religion together and so we attended the church of her faith.  I participated for a decade without being a member.

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

We tell our scouts that the CO (a Presbyterian church) considers the troop to be their ministry. As such, we help set up some of their activities/fundraisers with no thought as to money being exchanged. They make sure that there are extra doughnuts on Scoit Sunday. Everybody wins.

Our pack & troop are similar.  We regularly do things at/for/with our CO (also Presbyterian church).  Set up for events, help with their service projects, make improvements to the grounds, etc.  

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