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On 2/12/2019 at 11:42 AM, FireStone said:

So as an adult and a dad of a scout, if my son were having these kinds of issues with troop culture dictating that he wait some additional time to get signed off on something, we'd go looking for a new troop.

Not judging, but it always seems like an automatic response on this site to say "quick, find another troop" when there are advancement issues or a rogue SM.

No one ever really talks about the impact of transferring and uprooting a scout from his current troop, and his fellow scouts and friends there, to going to a completely different troop where he knows no one...

It's not an easy transition and it's completely unfair to the scout to have to find a new troop because his scoutmaster, and leaders, are not administering the BSA program correctly

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10 minutes ago, SSF said:

Not judging, but it always seems like an automatic response on this site to say "quick, find another troop" when there are advancement issues or a rogue SM.

No one ever really talks about the impact of transferring and uprooting a scout from his current troop, and his fellow scouts and friends there, to going to a completely different troop where he knows no one...

It's not an easy transition and it's completely unfair to the scout to have to find a new troop because his scoutmaster, and leaders, are not administering the BSA program correctly

Quite right.  It's not fair to the scout.

On the other hand, most of us are wise enough to choose our battles because we know full well that if we manage to push our scoutmaster (or other leader) out of the troop, it just might be US that gets tapped to fill his shoes.

Not all of us are ready to commit "one hour per week"...

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And to be fair, most of what we get here is one side of the story. As well as our responses tend to be idealistic because we don't have all the story to be pragmatic. We had a troop of 250 scouts with a very Eagle Mill reputation. When I asked some of their scouts and parents why they joined that troop, it was because they really like the program. Is that really so bad? Not my style, but 250 families had no complaints.

Barry

Edited by Eagledad
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Or be labelled as the troublemaker.  Most adults, even a great number of those were in scouting as youth, either don't want to really know how the cake is made, or would rather just let someone else make it and stay out of the kitchen.  And so, if you begin to question the method, you just might find yourself as the one who looks to be disruption what is, in their eyes, "working". 

I'm sure since the inception in 1910 there have been those units that just took the requirements and rattled through them in the easiest, fastest way possible.  i see way to much of it today though, and that might just be I am using adult eyes and not youth eyes...   National makes that grandiose statement in the GTA- but, do they actually give you anything on repercussions? Or, how they are going to get to the bottom of what your unit is doing? 

As far as moving troops- in all respects we should want our youth to find themselves, and not simply be followers.  But, as a parent, use your own judgement on how you talk to your kids about what they want.  My son changed troops, and he did so because he had learned for himself the right way to do things, and when he wasn't getting anywhere trying to get the adults (let alone the youth, who just modeled what they saw from the adults) to change, he left.  

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Up until the 60s (Bill Hillcourt), the BSA had visionaries and founders who when they spoke, everybody listened. We don't have that today. There really is no accountability because there isn't a vision to relate with. Oh, the BSA has their Vision and Mission Statements that hold many of us accountable, but I would guess 2% of scouters could even get close to repeating the intent, much less the words of those goals. Scouters work outside the lines today because there is very little instruction to describe those lines. And if they find themselves in trouble, they dig in because they invested so much of themselves into the role. Humility is rare in this culture.

Barry

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2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Up until the 60s (Bill Hillcourt), the BSA had visionaries and founders who when they spoke, everybody listened. We don't have that today. There really is no accountability because there isn't a vision to relate with.

SPOT ON! And worse, we now have folks in key levels at national who have little to no experience in the program making policies and procedures. I am told the national director of training has 0 experience in Scouting as either a youth or volunteer, but has the position because they hold a PhD in education. Ditto program director, no expereince in the program. yet they are making policy.

 

Another factor is online training. So much is being left out in order to make it convenient. has anyone looked at some of the Scouting Facebook groups and the questions being asked by "trained" adults? A lot of the times I am shaking my head because the answer to those questions use to be covered by basic training, and they no longer are. When you had real classes, you could could cover a lot more material and have expereinced Scouters helping you out.

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Up until the '72 Improved Scouting Program, BSA visionaries included Beard, Seton, Powell, as well as Goodman and Edson with the OA...all with naturalist or outdoorsman credentials. 

After '72, we see the outdoors relegated to a much lower priority at the national level.

If scouting is presented as sedentary, consisting of meetings, seminars, and merit badge fairs, we can find just about anyone to run those.  Vision doesn't really factor into it. 

Edited by desertrat77
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Speaking of "up until the 70s" wishful thinking ... especially when it comes to professionals who never went through the program ... a lot of this stress would be relieved with the removal of agism.

Not getting those skills down? No worries, come back as an ASM and SM and knock out those Star/Life/Eagle requirements that you weren't able to complete as a kid.

Your PhD not impressing boots-on-the ground scouters? No worries, spend a year serving a unit and become the first class scout you were always meant to be.

Take the lid off the pressure cooker, then we can celebrate (instead of look askance at) the 12 year old who nails down those skills and racks up bling!

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2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Speaking of "up until the 70s" wishful thinking ... especially when it comes to professionals who never went through the program ... a lot of this stress would be relieved with the removal of agism.

Not getting those skills down? No worries, come back as an ASM and SM and knock out those Star/Life/Eagle requirements that you weren't able to complete as a kid.

Your PhD not impressing boots-on-the ground scouters? No worries, spend a year serving a unit and become the first class scout you were always meant to be.

Take the lid off the pressure cooker, then we can celebrate (instead of look askance at) the 12 year old who nails down those skills and racks up bling!

I agree, remove those age restrictions and let adults learn/earn.  Get on the trail, build a fire, cook a pot of stew in a dutch oven, sleep under the stars.  Good for all concerned.

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17 hours ago, SSF said:

Not judging, but it always seems like an automatic response on this site to say "quick, find another troop" when there are advancement issues or a rogue SM.

No one ever really talks about the impact of transferring and uprooting a scout from his current troop, and his fellow scouts and friends there, to going to a completely different troop where he knows no one...

It's not an easy transition and it's completely unfair to the scout to have to find a new troop because his scoutmaster, and leaders, are not administering the BSA program correctly

You're 100% right, and if I seem at all flippant in my attitude about "we'd be looking for a new troop", that's a fair assessment.

But also, going back to my previous comments, I think being in an environment where advancement is blocked or delayed unnecessarily just because of some troop culture, that's just as damaging as uprooting a scout, maybe more so. My experience as a youth makes me think that's accurate. I knew a lot of guys that quit, my troop dwindled in size over the years to the point where while I was in college it folded entirely. Meanwhile other troops in town flourished, and (maybe coincidentally) those troops were the ones with no added restrictions on advancement, scouts went as fast or as slow as they wanted to.

And again, talking to guys from my old troop, many of them have a negative view of their scouting experience and aren't active today with their kids.

So absolutely, switching troops is tough on the scout involved. But is it worse than staying in a troop environment where they aren't having a good experience?

And although in a perfect world we'd be able to change the troops and leaders who create these barriers, let's be honest, that rarely happens. Even in cases where we've seen councils intervene, often times leaders don't change and the old troop culture still remains. And in some cases the scout (and their family) who raise the issue are labeled as troublemakers and their experience gets even worse.

I think you're right to suggest that I might be overlooking the impact on the scout when a change in unit is the chosen path. But I also think it's much harder than it might seem to change the culture in a unit where they have theses sometimes long-standing unofficial rules about advancement.

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