Jump to content
Ranman328

"Pencil Whipping" Requirements

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

but with the GSUSA is currently suing Scouts BSA over this, we need to be careful. Thanks.

Lawsuit aside, also just because we want to give these Scouts the respect they’re due by referring to their program properly. It would be like calling an American Legion post the VFW. Or the Democrats the Republicans.

Edited by shortridge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Or attend another troops meeting before 2/1.  The requirement doesn't state "while a member of a Scouts BSA troop" or "attend a meeting of your Scouts BSA troop".

There's a general requirement of "All requirements for the Scout rank must be completed as a member of a troop or as a Lone Scout. If you have already completed these requirements as part of the Webelos Scouting Adventure, simply demonstrate your knowledge or skills to your Scoutmaster or other designated leader after joining the troop." But their own meeting should clearly count.

As a whole, I'd be perhaps a bit more concerned if every scout earned tenderfoot in 1 month, and then 
second class the following month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, shortridge said:

You hold the first meeting, take care of everything else, have closing, then have the SM and ASM stay after to sign off on those requirements.

I don't know, when a unit works this hard for advancement, maybe the pencil whipping question is appropriate. It's not a big deal, but I certainly would ask if I were UC just to make sure the adults understand the big picture of fun and adventure. This unit could be led by experienced adults who know how to blow past this part, or inexperienced adults who are trying to rush forward. How much experience do these adults have?

Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, malraux said:

As a whole, I'd be perhaps a bit more concerned if every scout earned tenderfoot in 1 month, and then second class the following month.

Unless it is a group of very highly motivated 16-year-old Venturers who are working very hard to try to reach Eagle.   In such a situation, whether they are self-motivated could be assessed by talking to them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

Unless it is a group of very highly motivated 16-year-old Venturers who are working very hard to try to reach Eagle.   In such a situation, whether they are self-motivated could be assessed by talking to them.

Exactly that. The best thing to do is find out how things are going, rather than guess from afar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Or attend another troops meeting before 2/1.  The requirement doesn't state "while a member of a Scouts BSA troop" or "attend a meeting of your Scouts BSA troop".

That is how we approach it with AOL crossover Scouts.  They should have already attended one or more meetings while completing the Scouting Adventure.  They would have already completed the Cyberchip for their grade level as well.

Very easy to complete everything needed for the Scout rank in one night, particularly for a female troop that is linked and has been working closely with that linked troop to hit the ground running.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, malraux said:

As a whole, I'd be perhaps a bit more concerned if every scout earned tenderfoot in 1 month, and then second class the following month.

Why?

The scouts in question could complete requirement 6a & 6b at one troop meeting, complete the other requirements on a campout, and then 6c at the final troop meeting of the month.

We should be in the business of keeping youth active and interested!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, shingobeek said:

Why?

The scouts in question could complete requirement 6a & 6b at one troop meeting, complete the other requirements on a campout, and then 6c at the final troop meeting of the month.

We should be in the business of keeping youth active and interested!

To clarify, I certainly wouldn't say that it can't happen, or that it would be bad. New scouts reaching tenderfoot in a month is a good goal, especially for a new troop getting everyone up to speed. I would just expect that to reach second class in two months, you inevitably have the one or two scouts that missed a meeting and couldn't quite get every thing done and are one requirement short. And even if not, if they are all enjoying the process, working the method, etc, I'm not going to say they are doing it wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

This unit could be led by experienced adults who know how to blow past this part, or inexperienced adults who are trying to rush forward. How much experience do these adults have?

Thanks for your concern, but every new adult leader of a new Scouts BSA troop for girls has the same experience that every new adult leader of a Scouts BSA troop for boys had at one point. If they have none, they have access to the same resources and will learn.

Many units are also being led by highly experienced Scouters who have been SMs and ASMs with boys’ troops, taken all the training, gone to Wood Badge, etc.

Let’s not start gatekeeping here for these Scouts based on their leaders’ experience. It’s been demonstrated that they can fulfill the requirements in a minimal amount of time by doing a maximum amount of preparation and work. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, shingobeek said:

Why?

The scouts in question could complete requirement 6a & 6b at one troop meeting, complete the other requirements on a campout, and then 6c at the final troop meeting of the month.

We should be in the business of keeping youth active and interested!

Because even in the best units, all scouts advancing together at the same pace that fast implies a fast track advancement program. Scouts are individuals with individual desires and motivations. I've yet to see a program where pushing scouts through advancement is the best way to keep them interested. Adventure, adventure, adventure.

Sadly, many adults seem to believe that happiness comes through advancement. Those are the units without older scouts. 

Barry

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Because even in the best units, all scouts advancing together at the same pace that fast implies a fast track advancement program. Scouts are individuals with individual desires and motivations. I've yet to see a program where pushing scouts through advancement is the best way to keep them interested. Adventure, adventure, adventure.

Sadly, many adults seem to believe that happiness comes through advancement. Those are the units without older scouts. 

Barry

I agree - my point is that advancement can occur rapidly. 

As a teacher in a junior high setting I have seen far too many boys leave the program because "it's boring." These youth leave a troop that is very active -weekly meetings, monthly camping trips, and usually another activity. These boys leave because they aren't advancing. How a 14 y.o. that is active in a unit is still a tenderfoot or 2nd class is beyond me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Thanks for your concern, but every new adult leader of a new Scouts BSA troop for girls has the same experience that every new adult leader of a Scouts BSA troop for boys had at one point. If they have none, they have access to the same resources and will learn.

Many units are also being led by highly experienced Scouters who have been SMs and ASMs with boys’ troops, taken all the training, gone to Wood Badge, etc.

Let’s not start gatekeeping here for these Scouts based on their leaders’ experience. It’s been demonstrated that they can fulfill the requirements in a minimal amount of time by doing a maximum amount of preparation and work. 

Ah, we must be talking about your troop. 

We think differently. Advancement is toward the last subject I discuss with the adults of new units. Advancement starts adults off in an accountability frame of mind. New scouts want to learn how to set up a tent and start a fire. Can they fish at the lake? What is this KP stuff?

Adventure, adventure, adventure.

Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Ah, we must be talking about your troop.

No, we’re talking about all the new troops for girls who are motivated to move quickly through the advancement process and whom you are trying to gatekeep by raising questions about their leaders’ experience.

You have no idea what any of these new troops is doing. You have no idea about the experience of their leaders. You have no idea about the experience of their Scouts.

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

New scouts want to learn how to set up a tent and start a fire. Can they fish at the lake? What is this KP stuff?

Many of these girls are new Scouts but not new to Scouting or the outdoors or adventure. A Venturer and camp staff member who has run a first-year camper program at Boy Scout resident camp doesn’t need to learn how to set up a tent or start a fire or fish or make a duty roster. They will be racing through the requirements because they can do them with both hands tying one-handed bowlines behind their back.

Edited by shortridge

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, shingobeek said:

I agree - my point is that advancement can occur rapidly. 

As a teacher in a junior high setting I have seen far too many boys leave the program because "it's boring." These youth leave a troop that is very active -weekly meetings, monthly camping trips, and usually another activity. These boys leave because they aren't advancing. How a 14 y.o. that is active in a unit is still a tenderfoot or 2nd class is beyond me. 

Boys leave a fun adventurous troop because they aren't advancing? I have never seen that. I know of a lot of scouts who took two years to earn 2nd class, but that was because advancement was the least fun part of their scouting experience. 

I think you have the right objective of a program letting the scout choose his path of advancing, but the example you are using is not common. Something is missing. 

We coach adults to build a fun program where any scout can advance "at his pace", whatever that pace is. And quite frankly, that is a difficult program to build because it requires a unit that can attend to a scouts request for learning and showing off new skills 365 days a year. It also requires an adult staff that isn't concerned that some scouts are much slower than others. 

I'm curious to learn more about this troop.

Barry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This sends out red flags.  Of course, it's possible that in one 60-90 minute meeting, each scout did all of the reciting, explaining, and demonstrating required.  Especially if they studied up beforehand or were Webelos scouts.  

However, it's more likely that this was done in a 'classroom' type setting, where they all stood and recited the pledge, oath, law, etc. as a group.  Then sat around the table watching a powerpoint presentation on meanings said items.  Finally, wrapping up with a workshop on knots and rope care where not every scout quite mastered everything, but they all "did their best".

Could be a sign of a 'Webelos 3' Troop, and it is worrisome.  

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×