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What's in a name?

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53 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

We can see by Scouting's global reach, that Scouting's message and ideals are about as close to universal as we could hope for.

I think there are many folks who see Scouting as it is practiced (oaths, uniforms, knot-tying, badges, ranks, patrols, hand signs, etc.) as quaint and old-fashioned, and therefore not really relevant to the three things that seem to be frequently touted as what young people need for success in life:  a formal education, a career path, and a "passion."   As for the message and ideals, I think that to a lot of parents, the development of good citizens who are ready, willing, and able to help others and come to the aid of their country just seems too general and abstract in the 21st Century.  Yet if you change something in the traditional Green Bar Bill Scouting program, you are ripping out a piece of Scouting's soul -- so "adaptations" meet a lot of opposition.

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9 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

I think there are many folks who see Scouting as it is practiced (oaths, uniforms, knot-tying, badges, ranks, patrols, hand signs, etc.) as quaint and old-fashioned, and therefore not really relevant to the three things that seem to be frequently touted as what young people need for success in life:  a formal education, a career path, and a "passion."   As for the message and ideals, I think that to a lot of parents, the development of good citizens who are ready, willing, and able to help others and come to the aid of their country just seems too general and abstract in the 21st Century.  Yet if you change something in the traditional Green Bar Bill Scouting program, you are ripping out a piece of Scouting's soul -- so "adaptations" meet a lot of opposition.

In time,folks come to understand those methods are meant to achieve the aims of Scouting. They may argue that some methods are less important than others or not needed at all. 

" three things that seem to be frequently touted as what young people need for success in life:  a formal education, a career path, and a "passion."   I hear answers like this mostly from those with a career focus towards life - educators, employers.  My older college graduate, entrepreneur son says you need a network, skills, and a passion. His employer is a MIT dropout akin to Jobs, Gates,.Dell, sigh at least Musk graduated.  I hope my sons' lives will be balanced and not focused on a career. 

We need a new generation of involved citizens and when we find one, they get our vote. Consider the Girl Scout who at age 17 raised the minimum marriage age  in New Hampshire and now she at 19 is an elected state representative.  

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2018/12/04/cassandra-levesque-new-hampshire-state-representative

My $0.02 

Edited by RememberSchiff
clarity

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9 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

I think there are many folks who see Scouting as it is practiced (oaths, uniforms, knot-tying, badges, ranks, patrols, hand signs, etc.) as quaint and old-fashioned, and therefore not really relevant to the three things that seem to be frequently touted as what young people need for success in life:  a formal education, a career path, and a "passion."   As for the message and ideals, I think that to a lot of parents, the development of good citizens who are ready, willing, and able to help others and come to the aid of their country just seems too general and abstract in the 21st Century.  Yet if you change something in the traditional Green Bar Bill Scouting program, you are ripping out a piece of Scouting's soul -- so "adaptations" meet a lot of opposition.

This is the primary place where BSA training has failed.

First off, training sets the standard for the whole of the program. I used to teach District leaders that if the units are consistently doing something wrong, training is likely the cause. If a district wants to change consistent unit performance, they must do it through training.

Second, modern BSA training gives a lot of what to do, but not the why. The old handbooks and training syllabuses provided a great deal of instruction that included the why. That is why you will find the best scoutmasters today generally have read and can quote from the writings of the creators of the scouting movement (Powell, Boyce, Seton and Hillcourt). Their writings provided purpose and methods to the mission.

Because it's not trained, 90% of today's Scoutmasters don't understand the relationship between the BSA Mission, 3 Aims, or the 8 Methods. In fact, very few SMs can even say the 3 Aims, much less the 8 Methods. Without realizing it, Scoutmasters are the salesmen and saleswomen of the BSA, if not in their words, then in their performance. If leaders don't understand how the building blocks work toward developing ethical and moral decision makers, how can anyone outside-looking-in possibly understand.

This is why Patrol Method as the primary rail to the mission of building moral and ethical decision makers is crumbling in the modern program. Nobody respects how the method gets a young person from point A to point Z.

Barry

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25 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

the 3 Aims

Technically, we now have the 4 Aims: Character, Citizenship, Personal Fitness, and Leadership. Leadership was added very recently.

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6 minutes ago, malraux said:

Technically, we now have the 4 Aims: Character, Citizenship, Personal Fitness, and Leadership. Leadership was added very recently.

Sad to learn that because it means National lost the understanding of the structure for developing moral and ethical decision makers. Leadership is but one of many actions that develops a scout's character and selflessness.

Like the GSUSA, National is actually diminishing the importance of leadership actions by focusing it into an outward personality trait. The reality is that leadership method will have lost it's importance in the development of a scout because now the position of leadership will be a higher priority than the simple actions of the whole team. The result is adults will make sure scouts are put in leadership designated positions. They won't earn the honor, they will be assigned a stature for record.

Leadership actions in scouting were intended to shape and enhance character traits, not turn into a personality trait.  Few realize that followship actions are just as challenging and as much of a character developer as leadership actions. The actions of Followship are required for a successful team in the patrol method, and a well rounded person with moral and ethical decision traits. 

What a mess. 

Barry

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On 1/14/2019 at 9:10 AM, Monkeytamer said:

I'm sorry John. I don't understand your question.  I'm not being snarky either.  I just don't get what you are asking me.

There is ONE board of review for Eagle. It comes after the requirements are complete, after the project is done, and after the local council had administratively verified the applicant as eligible. 

So, what is this about an initial BOR?

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1 hour ago, malraux said:

Technically, we now have the 4 Aims: Character, Citizenship, Personal Fitness, and Leadership. Leadership was added very recently.

Is this true? I dont see any reference to this in BSA publications. Do you have a source?

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22 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The result is adults will make sure scouts are put in leadership designated positions. They won't earn the honor, they will be assigned a stature for record.

This!  Barry, I couldn't agree more.  I think it is important to shop for a Troop that does things the correct way.  Which is sad.  I'm sure it's romanticism to believe that there was a time when all troops ran the patrol method right down the line and had leaders (and frankly, a top-down leadership culture, from National all the way to the troop) who were versed and focused on the aims and methods, but as an Ideal, it's nice to think of a time when a parent didn't need to worry about these things.

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8 minutes ago, John-in-KC said:

There is ONE board of review for Eagle. It comes after the requirements are complete, after the project is done, and after the local council had administratively verified the applicant as eligible. 

So, what is this about an initial BOR?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, It is semantics on my part.  Others have set me straight that different districts and councils run things differently.  In ours, the administrative part of verifying the boy is eligible and approving his project proposal takes place in person before the board.  So locally, we've taken to calling that the "initial" board and the next time before the board the "final" BOR.  I have spent all my time as a scout and now a leader in the same council, so I was ignorant of other council's practices.

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1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

This is the primary place where BSA training has failed.

First off, training sets the standard for the whole of the program. I used to teach District leaders that if the units are consistently doing something wrong, training is likely the cause. If a district wants to change consistent unit performance, they must do it through training.

Second, modern BSA training gives a lot of what to do, but not the why. The old handbooks and training syllabuses provided a great deal of instruction that included the why. That is why you will find the best scoutmasters today generally have read and can quote from the writings of the creators of the scouting movement (Powell, Boyce, Seton and Hillcourt). Their writings provided purpose and methods to the mission.

Because it's not trained, 90% of today's Scoutmasters don't understand the relationship between the BSA Mission, 3 Aims, or the 8 Methods. In fact, very few SMs can even say the 3 Aims, much less the 8 Methods. Without realizing it, Scoutmasters are the salesmen and saleswomen of the BSA, if not in their words, then in their performance. If leaders don't understand how the building blocks work toward developing ethical and moral decision makers, how can anyone outside-looking-in possibly understand.

This is why Patrol Method as the primary rail to the mission of building moral and ethical decision makers is crumbling in the modern program. Nobody respects how the method gets a young person from point A to point Z.

Barry

What is interesting is the Scout Handbook and Patrol Leaders HB, I think give a cursory of the "why", but little concrete "how" or "what". Unlike the older books which were more complete. 

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28 minutes ago, MattR said:

https://www.scouting.org/training/training-updates/

It took a while to find it. Kind of sad that the aims don't tend to make it on the front page of the website.

 

Quote

A fourth aim of Scouting, Leadership Development, has been added to the other three (Character Development, Citizenship Training, and Physical and Mental Fitness). The fourth aim of Scouting will be included in all the Scouts BSA and Cub Scout modules.

Does this mean that "Leadership Development" is no longer one of the Methods?

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We've already veered far away from SSScout's question of what we will call Scouts in Scouts BSA, so I don't feel too bad responding to one of the tentacles  of this thread.

The telling of the "why" is one of the key aspects in Working the Patrol Method:

https://www.scoutleadership.com

I found this book most insightful and have used it to makes illustrations and tell timely stories when encouraging others to lead with "the why".

Also, there is Simon Sinek's book Start With Why:

https://startwithwhy.com

Isn't it funny that we have to be reminded to take this simple step when explaining things? 

Edited by LeCastor
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4 hours ago, Monkeytamer said:

In ours, the administrative part of verifying the boy is eligible and approving his project proposal takes place in person before the board.  

Your Council, IMO, is out of compliance with #33008, The Guide to Advancement. I’m glad I live where I do. 

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1 hour ago, LeCastor said:

 

Isn't it funny that we have to be reminded to take this simple step when explaining things? 

When our scouts earn their 1st class, they are eligible to sign off advancement if they take a couple of simple 5 minute training courses. One was writing a legible signature and date.  Yes, that 5 minute course was a reaction. The other was a process for teaching. Basically it was:

1. Give your name,

2. Give the name of the skill you are teaching

3. Explain why and when to use the specific skill, and list the resource references. 

4. Teach the skill until the student teaches it back to the teacher. 

I learned those 4 simple teaching guidelines at the old pre 21st Century Woodbadge course. 

When the Scouts were preparing for their EBOR, I usually suggested reviewing the "whys" of the skills since they couldn't be retested on demonstrating them.

Barry

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