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Girl Scouts Suing the Boy Scouts

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8 hours ago, hiker67 said:

A 2014 article on GSUSA camp closures; it mentions a reduced role for outdoor learning within the organization:

Why Are Girl Scout Camps Being Closed?

Much legal bluster back in 2014 about camps and finances , ditto 2018 but about names?  

IMO, their outdoor learning is becoming STEM-focused as opposed to recreational, adventure,...

http://www.news9.com/story/39556995/girl-scouts-working-on-building-a-new-camp-ground

Edited by RememberSchiff

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7 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

This should satisfy everyone and bring an end to the controversy:

 

Khaki Scouts.

Jack and Jill went up the hill, each wearing awful 70s polyester.

Those polyesters are a mean animal, but their coats are worth a fortune.

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7 hours ago, dkurtenbach said:

This should satisfy everyone and bring an end to the controversy:

2012_moonrise_kingdom_003.jpg.2f457e2b0898ca68862a11aeeeb81e3c.jpg

Khaki Scouts.

The Fort Lebanon scenes in that film were shot at Yawgoog Scout Reservation (BSA) in Rhode Island.

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We had a quick Eagle award last night.  After as we were getting ready to leave the Eagle made the comment "I am glad I got my Eagle before the name change". 

Interesting thought.  Not so much for right now, because we are heading down the road and already have made a change decision.  Question is how will these young men feel in 10 -15 years about the Boy Scouts of America (or whatever it may be called) and what effect will that have.  Will they believe it is the same organization that they were in?   Are the folks in Dallas selling the future for a hopefully quick win in the current times?  The analogy of the YMCA is spot on.  People were members of the YMCA and they have most certainly changed and updated their focus, but they are still called the YMCA.

We are the Boy Scouts of America.  There is a tremendous amount of name recognition and good will from that name.  Let's not muck it up.

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Sentiment I heard from about 8 staff members this summer that are Life scouts- "i want to get my Eagle done before the change".  Here's the thing about all of this for me: it isn't about bashing girls, it isn't about just the past traditions, it isn't about what I or any adult desires- the youth of this organization should be the ones deciding the membership policies, and the name of their organization should they so chose to change it. 

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1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

...  Question is how will these young men feel in 10 -15 years about the Boy Scouts of America (or whatever it may be called) and what effect will that have.  Will they believe it is the same organization that they were in?  

... 

This will depend on three things. 1) GS/USA continues to treat what I am now calling field science (a.k.a. the outdoor method) as a completely optional method in their definition of scouting, 2) This year's class of Eagles have daughters or their friends' daughters who find great appeal in the thought of hiking and camp independently with their mates, and 3) The girls who come up through the ranks are "all that" and make a solid impression in their community.

Years before I was a crew advisor, I was impressed by a venturer camp staff who walked Son #1 (then a Wolf) through the camp's nature trail. I asked her how she liked Exploring, and she politely corrected me, then went through the opportunities she had. At the time, the program sold itself.

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1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

We had a quick Eagle award last night.  After as we were getting ready to leave the Eagle made the comment "I am glad I got my Eagle before the name change". 

Interesting thought.  Not so much for right now, because we are heading down the road and already have made a change decision.  Question is how will these young men feel in 10 -15 years about the Boy Scouts of America (or whatever it may be called) and what effect will that have.  Will they believe it is the same organization that they were in?   Are the folks in Dallas selling the future for a hopefully quick win in the current times?  The analogy of the YMCA is spot on.  People were members of the YMCA and they have most certainly changed and updated their focus, but they are still called the YMCA.

We are the Boy Scouts of America.  There is a tremendous amount of name recognition and good will from that name.  Let's not muck it up.

I once gave a scoutmaster minute of how the Army Rangers in WWII recruited Eagle Scouts because they were already trained in leadership and first aid. One of our Eagles (he was about 25 at the time) told me that he had not taken the Eagle seriously until that SM Minute. It was just boring advancement until I colored with a higher nobility worth earning. 

My 88 year old dad has told me that one of his regrets in life is not earning the Eagle. He was about 3 merit badges away, but ran out of time because he was busy being the 16 year old SM of his troop. For him, the Eagle was the greater honor he missed.

Qwazse has been clear that his daughter is very capable of earning the Eagle because she is a good outdoorsman, um woman. Is outdoorsmenship what the Eagle represents in our culture today. Qwazse has never mentioned his daughter wanting the Gold Award. Could three 15 mile hikes and one overnight backpacking trip becoming the high point of the Eagle?

I'm not sure what the Eagle represents to our culture today. It doesn't sound like leadership or character.  There is a member of this thread that has nothing kind to say about Eagles and makes a point that he will never not recruit one for unit leadership. I guess the image of the Eagle isn't at WWII Ranger standards anymore. 

I believe there is a clear line drawn between last years Boy Scouts of America, and the new program. It doesn't matter what they call it, the visual of girls defines the line. Good or bad? Who knows. But I feel an image change is inevitable, certainly for my dad. And the change will be accelerated with every change that is different from last years BSA program. Today they change the name, tomorrow the uniform. The Oath and Law aren't too far down the road. Will there be enough of last years Boy Scout program left for todays Eagles to respect their kids Eagle 15 years from now? 

Barry

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1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

I believe there is a clear line drawn between last years Boy Scouts of America, and the new program. It doesn't matter what they call it, the visual of girls defines the line. Good or bad? Who knows. But I feel an image change is inevitable, certainly for my dad. And the change will be accelerated with every change that is different from last years BSA program. Today they change the name, tomorrow the uniform. The Oath and Law aren't too far down the road. Will there be enough of last years Boy Scout program left for todays Eagles to respect their kids Eagle 15 years from now? 

BSA has been very explicit in saying that no advancement requirements are being changed to accommodate our new members.  Further, this membership change for Cub Scouts and (what is currently) Boy Scouts was a long time in coming, with decades of controversy and litigation against BSA seeking admission of girls.  The stated reasons for this change now are demand by families for a single organization for their boys and girls, and demand by girls to fully participate in these BSA programs.  While we can't accurately predict what things will be like in fifteen years, my conclusion from the past and recent history of this issue is that any "dumbing down" of any aspect of the program in order to accommodate girls is out of the question, at least for the next few years.  The loudest howls of protest would come from the girls.  I think another effect of admission of girls is that extra care will be taken to ensure that standards are maintained and advancement is "by the book" -- and that the resulting checking and tightening of advancement practices will also weed out some laxity that has crept into the system.  Additionally, I think that girls in the program will raise the level of competition -- and achievement.  And finally, if BSA is smart in its marketing, it will seek to differentiate BSA even more from GSUSA, and the obvious vehicle for that is the appeal of outdoor adventure to girls.  Look for tweaks to advancement requirements that increase the quantity and variety of outdoor adventure requirements.

Edited by dkurtenbach
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9 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

BSA has been very explicit in saying that no advancement requirements are being changed to accommodate our new members.  Further, this membership change for Cub Scouts and (what is currently) Boy Scouts was a long time in coming, with decades of controversy and litigation against BSA seeking admission of girls.  The stated reasons for this change now are demand by families for a single organization for their boys and girls, and demand by girls to fully participate in these BSA programs.  While we can't accurately predict what things will be like in fifteen years, my conclusion from the past and recent history of this issue is that any "dumbing down" of any aspect of the program in order to accommodate girls is out of the question, at least for the next few years.  The loudest howls of protest would come from the girls.  I think another effect of admission of girls is that extra care will be taken to ensure that standards are maintained and advancement is "by the book" -- and that the resulting checking and tightening of advancement practices will also weed out some laxity that has crept into the system.  Additionally, I think that girls in the program will raise the level of competition -- and achievement.  And finally, if BSA is smart in its marketing, it will seek to differentiate BSA even more from GSUSA, and the obvious vehicle for that is the appeal of outdoor adventure to girls.  Look for tweaks to advancement requirements that increase the quantity and variety of outdoor adventure requirements.

Protest too much, me thinks. Nobody was talking about changing advancement or DUMBING DOWN. The discussion was of image. You only needed to post your last sentence to express you opinion on that part of the discussion.

Barry

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9 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

BSA has been very explicit in saying that no advancement requirements are being changed to accommodate our new members.  Further, this membership change for Cub Scouts and (what is currently) Boy Scouts was a long time in coming, with decades of controversy and litigation against BSA seeking admission of girls.  The stated reasons for this change now are demand by families for a single organization for their boys and girls, and demand by girls to fully participate in these BSA programs.  While we can't accurately predict what things will be like in fifteen years, my conclusion from the past and recent history of this issue is that any "dumbing down" of any aspect of the program in order to accommodate girls is out of the question, at least for the next few years.  The loudest howls of protest would come from the girls.  I think another effect of admission of girls is that extra care that will be taken to ensure that standards are maintained and advancement is "by the book" -- and that the resulting checking and tightening of advancement practices will also weed out some laxity that has crept into the system.  Additionally, I think that girls in the program will raise the level of competition -- and achievement.  And finally, if BSA is smart in its marketing, it will seek to differentiate BSA even more from GSUSA, and the obvious vehicle for that is the appeal of outdoor adventure to girls.  Look for tweaks to advancement requirements that increase the quantity and variety of outdoor adventure requirements.

I don't believe that "dumbing down" is at all going to be resulting because girls are being admitted- from all that I experience in my area, I feel the dumbing down has already been happening.  I am in agreement to @Eagledad's sentiments that what this organization was perceived at before has changed.  If "it isn't all about the Eagle', BSA would not keep making the point in all this Scouts BSA marketing, it would just be understood and implied by saying that girls are going to have the same opportunities as boys. 

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9 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Protest too much, me thinks. Nobody was talking about changing advancement or DUMBING DOWN. The discussion was of image. You only needed to post your last sentence to express you opinion on that part of the discussion.

Barry

"[T]he change will be accelerated with every change that is different from last years BSA program. Today they change the name, tomorrow the uniform. The Oath and Law aren't too far down the road. Will there be enough of last years Boy Scout program left for todays Eagles to respect their kids Eagle 15 years from now?"

Emphasis added.  You seem to be saying there that the degree of image change is tied to the degree of program change, and you ask what the degree of program change will be in 15 years.  Advancement is, of course, integral to the program, and therefore to image.

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As a Cub Scout Leader who is going through recharter, I can tell you we are losing scouts to sports and busy parents.  I have had 0 parents tell me that girls, gays or god made a difference with their membership.  What I have been told has been 2 major reasons for not joining or dropping....

- both parents work schedules are too much to support their child in scouts... if they could simply drop them off at meetings and outings... that could work.  They don’t have time to help their son with PWD, etc.... already too busy.

- Sports....they see sports, especially for boys, as the best way to grow their son.   

For those inside the program, we know the unique benefits and experience scouts provides.  I don’t see the general parent population seeing it outside of the Eagle Scout.  My guess is that if they de-emphasized Eagle, you would see even faster attrition... it is the one topic I consistently have parents from outside scouting ask me about when considering joining.  

 

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41 minutes ago, dkurtenbach said:

The stated reasons for this change now are demand by families for a single organization for their boys and girls, and demand by girls to fully participate in these BSA programs.  

I think the "Family" aspect (however you may define that) is the largest unknown coming around the bend for the Boy Scouts (soon to be Scouts BSA).  Not sure how all these new families that are flooding in will react when the kiddos can't be in the same troop, all the younger siblings aren't tagging along, and (if used) the linked troops do different activities.  Also the way troops camp is vastly different from Cubs.  Same for meetings, planning, advancement.

These will be good times as it gets hashed out.

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9 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Not sure how all these new families that are flooding in will react when the kiddos can't be in the same troop,

Convenience of scheduling both sons and daughters is an issue for some local families.  We are talking about the linked boys and girls troops meeting at the same time in different rooms of a local church.   Easier on families' schedules.  Easier to borrow ASMs back and forth.   As the new girls troop gets started, might want to borrow some of the higher ranked boys as skills teachers on occasion.  Some joint outings as well as separate outings.   We are still trying to figure it all out.     The current boy scouts (youth) opinion matters.

As far as scouts with younger siblings.   Same as now that just means only one parent is available to camp with the troop as at ASM on any given outing, so that the other parent is available to stay home with the younger kids. 

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