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EP YPT requirements

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If a scout' s project is a collection project with four separate locations, does he need 8 deep leadership?

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Assuming there is youth at each collection point that is how I would interpret today's youth protection policy.  That is two registered leaders 21 years old at each location.

Edited by NealOnWheels

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It's so incredible that we are bogging great work down with ridiculous stipulations.

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This does seem to be heading towards the ridiculous. The policy is 2 deep for the event, there is no distance requirement but with all things judgement is necessary. At summer camp is it expected to have 2 adults follow every group of kids to every location? Or on a camping trip, 2 adults with every patrol, or with the buddies as they are out collecting firewood. If one patrol goes on a hike, while another chooses to stay in camp and do totin chip, are 4 adults needed? Of course not. 2 deep for the event, not 2 babysitting every small grouping.

If the patrol has an inexperienced leader who decides to take his patrol on a 5 mile hike away from camp, then the SM should be discussing how he will lead his patrol on a day hike without an adult. The conversation should lead the scout to understand his own strengths and limitations and construct a plan to be safe. The PL might request an ASM follow along for safety, or take along a walkie-talkie to communicate with base camp every 20 minutes, or modify the route to a cloverleaf which circles back through camp every 15 minutes, or realize he and his patrol aren't ready to take on this adventure and modify it to increase their skill level, or...

Regardless, the 2-deep requirement has already been satisfied. The question now is a judgement of the SM whether the plan is within safety parameters for the skill level of the patrol and his leader. 

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I have seen and heard many people opining that two-deep means they have to have two 21+ registered adults attending every instructional session at summer camp, or in each classroom at a merit badge fair. Worse is their insistence that a 21+ registered female leader has to be present in the room at every session or class where female Scouts are. That would make every session of summer camp come to a grinding halt for new Scouts next summer.

National needs to update the G2SS and YPT with some very clear verbiage explaining the difference between two-deep and no one-on-one, and the meanings of activity, event, outing, etc.

Edited by shortridge
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6 hours ago, DuctTape said:

This does seem to be heading towards the ridiculous. The policy is 2 deep for the event, there is no distance requirement but with all things judgement is necessary. At summer camp is it expected to have 2 adults follow every group of kids to every location? Or on a camping trip, 2 adults with every patrol, or with the buddies as they are out collecting firewood. If one patrol goes on a hike, while another chooses to stay in camp and do totin chip, are 4 adults needed? Of course not. 2 deep for the event, not 2 babysitting every small grouping.

If the patrol has an inexperienced leader who decides to take his patrol on a 5 mile hike away from camp, then the SM should be discussing how he will lead his patrol on a day hike without an adult. The conversation should lead the scout to understand his own strengths and limitations and construct a plan to be safe. The PL might request an ASM follow along for safety, or take along a walkie-talkie to communicate with base camp every 20 minutes, or modify the route to a cloverleaf which circles back through camp every 15 minutes, or realize he and his patrol aren't ready to take on this adventure and modify it to increase their skill level, or...

Regardless, the 2-deep requirement has already been satisfied. The question now is a judgement of the SM whether the plan is within safety parameters for the skill level of the patrol and his leader. 

4 adults for the camping / hiking example would be highly recommended (but not required) based on this article from Bryan on Scouting What’s the difference between ‘two-deep leadership’ and ‘no one-on-one contact’? (written before the October 2018 changes to the YPT rules, but still relevant):

"What about if there are only two adults present on a campout of eight Scouts, and one group wants to go hiking while the other stays at camp to fish?

While Youth Protection policies don’t expressly forbid it, it’s not the recommended approach because of health and safety concerns. What if the adult on the hike gets injured? What if the adult back at camp has an emergency? In those situations, it would be helpful to have a second adult present. Many troops in that situation would want at least four leaders: two to go on the hike and two to stay at camp."


How old / experienced are the Scouts on the hike?  How far is the hike?  Is the hike in the backcountry or close to roads?  If someone were to get injured, how quickly / easily could they be rescued, if necessary?  Do the Scouts have a hike plan and know what to do if they get lost?  Does the group at camp know exactly where the hiking group is planning to go and when they plan to return?  Etc.  These are risk assessments that need to be done.

A merit badge fair would be a different situation.  The Scouts are probably all in one location (although they are probably in different rooms).  The two-deep leadership would be for the entire activity (merit badge fair), although every merit badge counselor is required to be registered with the BSA.  No one-on-one contact would mean that a merit badge counselor can meet with a group of Scouts, but cannot meet alone with just a single Scout.  The risk assessment would be completely different from that of splitting up into 2 groups in the backcountry.

 

 

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These are questions my summer camp has been asking and so far they have not gotten any answers yet.

1. Are 18 to 20 year old scouters allowed to be merit badges councilors anymore?

2. Many merit badge sessions are inside buildings, if a male staff member is the merit badge councilor and there is a female scout in the class,  must a 21 year old female scouter be present?

3. If all merit badge councilors were female and over age 21 would this meet the new YPT requirements?

 

  

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13 minutes ago, cocomax said:

These are questions my summer camp has been asking and so far they have not gotten any answers yet.

1. Are 18 to 20 year old scouters allowed to be merit badges councilors anymore?

2. Many merit badge sessions are inside buildings, if a male staff member is the merit badge councilor and there is a female scout in the class,  must a 21 year old female scouter be present?

3. If all merit badge councilors were female and over age 21 would this meet the new YPT requirements?

 

  

 

Just my opinion:

1.  Yes, but they no longer count for purposes of the 2-deep leadership requirement.  Same answer with Assistant Den Leaders, Unit College Reserve, and Assistant Scoutmasters who are age 18-20 years old.

2.  Unclear.  The GTSS Scouting's Barriers to Abuse: Adult Supervision rules say:  "A registered female adult leader 21 years of age or over must be present for any activity involving female youth."  I could be wrong, but I think that as long as a registered female adult leader age 21+ is present and on site at the activity (not necessarily in every single classroom with girls), then that would count.

3.  Yes.  Registered merit badge counselors undergo the criminal background check, so if they are female and age 21+, then they would count for two-deep leadership purposes.

The no one-on-one contact rules would also still apply.

 

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36 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

4 adults for the camping / hiking example would be highly recommended (but not required) based on this article from Bryan on Scouting What’s the difference between ‘two-deep leadership’ and ‘no one-on-one contact’? (written before the October 2018 changes to the YPT rules, but still relevant):

"What about if there are only two adults present on a campout of eight Scouts, and one group wants to go hiking while the other stays at camp to fish?

While Youth Protection policies don’t expressly forbid it, it’s not the recommended approach because of health and safety concerns. What if the adult on the hike gets injured? What if the adult back at camp has an emergency? In those situations, it would be helpful to have a second adult present. Many troops in that situation would want at least four leaders: two to go on the hike and two to stay at camp."


How old / experienced are the Scouts on the hike?  How far is the hike?  Is the hike in the backcountry or close to roads?  If someone were to get injured, how quickly / easily could they be rescued, if necessary?  Do the Scouts have a hike plan and know what to do if they get lost?  Does the group at camp know exactly where the hiking group is planning to go and when they plan to return?  Etc.  These are risk assessments that need to be done.

A merit badge fair would be a different situation.  The Scouts are probably all in one location (although they are probably in different rooms).  The two-deep leadership would be for the entire activity (merit badge fair), although every merit badge counselor is required to be registered with the BSA.  No one-on-one contact would mean that a merit badge counselor can meet with a group of Scouts, but cannot meet alone with just a single Scout.  The risk assessment would be completely different from that of splitting up into 2 groups in the backcountry.

 

 

Yes. Which is why I posited the potential PL-SM interaction to discuss. As you mentioned the skill level, and environment play a critical role in this judgement. This is of primary importance as it furthers the mission.

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