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Qualities of an Eagle

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11 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Patrol Method has been a struggle to maintain for many units for decades. Units that wanted to keep it going have done so, in spite of the hurdles.

11 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Units I see today still effectively using the Patrol Method are doing so because they fostered a PM culture over many years and continue to do so.

So I am hoping to be involved with a new girls Scouts BSA troop.    I would like to see the patrol method used, and used well, in the new troop.    Any suggestions for how to foster a Patrol Method culture in a new troop  (whether the new troops be girls,  boys,  or Martians) ?    I have already read the books Working the Patrol Method by Four Eagle Scouts and So Far, So Good! by Clarke Green

And there is the complication that a new troop is likely to be a one-patrol troop at first.

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1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Family  Scouting does belong to mom and dad and siblings, and we all have our roles and opportunities within the organization. 

 

 

 

Fixed that for you.

There is nothing about siblings in Scouts BSA

 

 

Edited by an_old_DC

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24 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I don't know they story with your local unit(s), but as a possibly over-generalized comment I think blaming Family Scouting for the woes of any particular unit's shortcomings or failures is a cop-out. Patrol Method has been a struggle to maintain for many units for decades. Units that wanted to keep it going have done so, in spite of the hurdles. Blaming Family Scouting, a programing initiative that is primarily focused on the Cub level, for any failure of the Patrol Method seems misplaced.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm looking at this in the big picture (Nationally). Family Scouting is not only rapidly accelerating the decline of Patrol Method, it will be the dagger of it's finality.

I can honestly say I didn't see it coming two years ago. 

Barry

 

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You know what's interesting is that we got new Scoutmasters this year (husband/wife team) and they have taken the training to heart.  They are saying things like "you (Scouts) don't work for us, we work for you".  They are moving the troop more towards Patrols than they have been in the past.  

Every local flavor will be a little different, but it's not like there's no hope! 

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15 minutes ago, an_old_DC said:

Fixed that for you.

There is nothing about siblings in Scouts BSA

 

 

My oldest son has two brothers. They are siblings.  They are all in Scouts BSA.  Soon we may have older Scouts in troops with younger sisters in Cubs.  That's Scouts BSA.  We may have brothers in one troop and sisters in another troop.  That's Scouts BSA.  We may have Scouts with older siblings in Venturing.  That's Scouts BSA.  

And here's the thing, when you have Dad as a den leader and Mom running the popcorn sale, and sister in Venturing and Brother in Scouts, then that helps make a family stronger.  And it helps make a community stronger.  

Edited by WisconsinMomma
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2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It's not the good old boy club anymore!  

I would have to agree with you,  you are right.

Around here it is more of a Mom's club than a good old boys club, the Moms have been doing a great job of running off the good old boys. 

Edited by cocomax

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9 minutes ago, cocomax said:

Around here it is more of a Mom's club than a good old boys club, the Moms have been doing a great job of running off the good old boys. 

I have no problems running off a good old boy who does not respect the current families in the Troop or is an egomaniac.

There is a reason why some people get nicer as they age, it's because they want to continue to be included and not sent off to the dust bin.   A troop does not need a graybeard around to be successful.  But if they happen to have a wonderful graybeard around, it's an asset.  An elder who lives the Scout Law and is welcoming and kind to families is the kind of person you want around for a long time. 

All adult leaders are replaceable. Our troop is cycling through this . Older leaders whose kids have long gone are leaving.  That is OK!  That is normal.  New parents are stepping up to help run fund raisers and serve as merit badge counselors.  That is all very healthy stuff. 

Edited by WisconsinMomma

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Oh, the presumption that my quips are only delivered to boys ... but the let's just assume that's the case, and that what I say might lead to some Sooner enforcing his ideals of 'kept women. (Sorry, Barry, couldn't resist).

3 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Rural India and the Middle East are extremely sexist.  In addition to this dowry burning, in parts of rural India women are expected to burn themselves to death, and celebrated for it, when their husbands die.   All of this is treating women as property

https://www.smh.com.au/world/india-burning-brides-and-ancient-practice-is-on-the-rise-20150115-12r4j1.html

https://scroll.in/article/874185/decades-after-india-outlawed-sati-a-temple-to-a-victim-in-bundelkhand-draws-scores-of-devotees

I think it serves everyone better to make sure the boys and girls can manage their own cooking and chores.   I think demeaning the criteria is better than demeaning women. 

The first link was a "love marriage"; therefore, tragically makes a case for my point. Unions based on emotion make great novels, but those things fade and render a person who cannot make a living in his/her own right vulnerable to abuse. Would that her husband and family could rise above this. They couldn't.

The case in your second link is perhaps far more complicated. In the 18th-19th century, William Carey tried collaborated closely with Indian scholars to build a nation who voluntarily resisted the culture of Sati. The subcontinent is seeing rejection of perceived 20th century government overreach and touting of over-zealous Hindu nationalism. (Not unlike our Alt-Right who hang their hats on "old time" Christian or Pagan Aryanism, which has no documented basis in the ancient dogmas of either religions.)

1 hour ago, WisconsinMomma said:

The motives of my in-country MENA cousins are even more complex. They believe that they must "win," and they only see themselves "winning" through heirs, a strategy that makes them wholly dependent on women. In this context, a woman's wealth or skill is immaterial. Be the marriage for love or money, a wife is liability until sons rise up to defend the household according to mantras like "Me against my brothers, my brothers against my cousins, my cousins against the world." I am finally old enough to be trusted to converse with (some) young MENA women, and it's captivating to hear them sift through a mix of ancient and post-modern ideals. It's also interesting watching the young men try to keep up. (Look up PBS's Frontline episodes of Our Man in Iran.) I have no idea where the chips will land with that lot. But, I assert that challenging young men and women in that culture to seek out the endowed and industrious for mates puts them on more solid footing.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It might be a much more valuable and Scout-like lesson to talk to boys about what they should give in a relationship, more than what they can get.  ...

I'm not a fan of transactional  if-you-give-X-expect-to-get-Y approaches to marriage. Talking to someone about the cost of a relationship smacks of prostitution ...

My working assumption is that a youth will go "all-in" for their spouse. The question then boils down to what kind of person he/she should go "all-in" for? My answer is not pat. It's provoking.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

... If I heard that you were teaching my boys about your vision of spouse selection we'd be having a conversation where I'd be asking you to stick to the Scout Handbook.  You are welcome to have that conversation with your own children all day long but it's not your scope of practice to train mine in that subject matter. I have some suggestions for my children about choosing a mate, but they are for my family only.

I've never been inclined to put a gag on my kid's adult leaders. If they were afraid to give my youth proverbs that trouble Mrs. Q and I, they might also have been afraid to tell them something dreadfully important. As the kids grew, we could discuss who said what and why they did.

2 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

Here's the thing, it's not funny.  My husband had a Chemistry professor who told him something like, "the taller they are, the more fun they are to ride."  Is that a joke?  Is it funny?  Is it Chemistry?  This is the kind of garbage that goes around and it's inappropriate. 

The snide remark is none of the above. It is Hephnerism at its best ... fulfilling the Cosmopolitan ideal that we all are best treated as parts for temporary use and subsequent disposal. It is precisely the standard by which young men and women in the past 50 years have been brought up to evaluate one another. Some great and powerful people have learned to live by it. It echos from teen tents of both sexes late at night.

It's what you get when people like me don't talk to your youth the way we do.

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24 minutes ago, cocomax said:

I would have to agree with you,  you are right.

Around here it is more of a Mom's club than a good old boys club, the Moms have been doing a great job of running off the good old boys. 

 

15 minutes ago, WisconsinMomma said:

I have no problems running off a good old boy who does not respect the current families in the Troop or is an egomaniac.

There is a reason why some people get nicer as they age, it's because they want to continue to be included and not sent off to the dust bin.   A troop does not need a graybeard around to be successful.  But if they happen to have a wonderful graybeard around, it's an asset.  An elder who lives the Scout Law and is welcoming and kind to families is the kind of person you want around for a long time. 

All adult leaders are replaceable. Our troop is cycling through this . Older leaders whose kids have long gone are leaving.  That is OK!  That is normal.  New parents are stepping up to help run fund raisers and serve as merit badge counselors.  That is all very healthy stuff. 

As one whose beard is greying, and who is facing the prospects of World Jambo and 20-something SMs from the rest of the world, you are right.

What keeps many of us in? Well,

  • luck. I've lost some good friends over the years, so I know that my nights counting stars are limited.
  • money and time. Our country is very unique in that many retirees have made a decent nest egg.
  • being nice. The first two don't matter if someone complains too much to our COR.
  • war and college. It takes our young SM's/ASM's away from us right when we need them the most. Us oldies need to sub in for them until they return and can tell their boss they ain't working double shifts no more.
  • smiles. I say it again and again ... but there is no place where I see happier young people than when they settle themselves down in the middle of the wilderness. Maybe not the first time, but they keep coming back. Then finally learning how to rest easy.
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Firstly, I fail to see what the cultures in India and other middle eastern nations have to do with criteria for choosing a spouse in America, unless perhaps the region in which you reside has a significant number of immigrants from such areas. 

As far as I am able to ascertain no one here has called for suttee, or dowery,  or even the acceptance of sexist and demeaning jokes or stories.

Secondly, scouting belongs to the scouts. Not the siblings, not the parents, not even the Scouters with half a century of experience,  The scouts. 

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In my troop the grey beards sit out of the way and let the boys run things and only step in when asked by the boys for help or for safety reasons.

The boys run the program.

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4 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Secondly, scouting belongs to the scouts. Not the siblings, not the parents, not even the Scouters with half a century of experience,  The scouts. 

Ah I feel younger, thanks. :)

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42 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Secondly, scouting belongs to the scouts. Not the siblings, not the parents, not even the Scouters with half a century of experience,  The scouts. 

Wow, I've not heard my scouting experience put in the context of a half century.  I gotta think about that, lots of mix emotions. :blink:

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13 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

 

As far as I am able to ascertain no one here has called for suttee, or dowery,  or even the acceptance of sexist and demeaning jokes or stories.

 

It appears that one of the posts about criteria for choosing women who are rich and good cooks and seeing a woman working in a field and saying "that'll do" have been removed.  I don't see those posts on this thread anymore, but they were here, and that's what prompted my replies.

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4 hours ago, WisconsinMomma said:

It appears that one of the posts about criteria for choosing women who are rich and good cooks and seeing a woman working in a field and saying "that'll do" have been removed.  I don't see those posts on this thread anymore, but they were here, and that's what prompted my replies.

Now my mansplaining take...I took that post as a bit of tongue in cheek, especially after further clarifications from @qwazse.  He does go “off the reservation” from time to time (like most of us) but I don’t think it was fully along the lines of find yourself a rich maid.  Quips don’t all translate to Internet forums well.  

I took it as find a good life partner that will be willing to do their share of work in the marriage.  That other attributes may not be the best to go on.   Perhaps there is a bit of an assumption of what roles in marriage each should take, but that is something that should be understood before going in. If someone believes and wants their wife to cook, that is fine as long as both partners recognize that and agree before entering marriage.  

My quips to youth now focus on recommendations of keeping detailed calendars and limiting social media for our future leaders...talk about a mine field.

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