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shortridge

Boys-only weeks at camp

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1 hour ago, shortridge said:

My concern is that my Scouts’ entire program experience will be negatively impacted (being shunted to less desirable weeks), that their options will be limited (they can’t attend whatever week they choose), and that the overall quality of their Scouting experience will be diminished — because another Scout’s feelings and wants has been granted special status thanks to their outwardly expressed gender.

Do you have evidence this is really happening or are you just catastrophizing?  I agree that scouts are scouts and should have all the same access to services regardless of gender.  Any council that actually does otherwise should be called out.  But creating a worst case scenario and then demanding everybody get in line is unhelpful.  I don't agree that anybody is diminished if a particular camp runs boy-only, girls-only, and mixed sessions.  In fact I celebrate it.  The more camps we have offering options for all scouts the better off we'll be.

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Posted (edited)

 

19 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Do you have evidence this is really happening or are you just catastrophizing? 

See, that’s not the way this works. My girls don’t have to show direct harm in order to get equal treatment. We are all Scouts - not boy Scouts, not girl Scouts, just plain Scouts. The overall decision tells them that they are lesser than the boys, which is the fundamentally frustrating part. But here’s a very basic example:

My local camp has five weeks of Scouts BSA summer camp. Two have been designated as boys-only, leaving just three weeks for girls to choose from - one in June and two in July.

- Boys have the freedom to go to camp any week they choose out of those five. Girls don’t.

- Boys can work their camp schedule around family vacations, trips to the grandparents, child custody arrangements, summer jobs, or summer school. Girls have to fit in their camp plans around the boys’ favored weeks.

- Boys can attend camp with their troop and then return the next week for provisional camp. Girls only have that option once because of how the weeks are split.

- Boys’ troop leadership can pick whatever weeks they want their unit to attend. Girls’ troop leadership has to arrange their schedules around these leftover weeks in order to attend as a troop. That can be difficult for many leaders and parents whose work may not be as forgiving as others.

It’s also fascinating that Cubs aren’t having this discussion. Resident camps and day camps aren’t segregated by gender. Why should Scouts BSA camps be?

This simply should not be an issue in 2019 with a new unified program.

Edited by shortridge

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if the schedule were something like:

  • week 1: co-ed
  • week 2: boys only
  • week 3: girls only
  • week 4: co-ed
  • week 5: co-ed

It would seem fair.  

 

But, something like:

  • week 1: boys only
  • week 2: boys only
  • week 3: ce-ed
  • week 4: co-ed
  • week 5: boys only

Does not.

 

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24 minutes ago, shortridge said:

 

See, that’s not the way this works. My girls don’t have to show direct harm in order to get equal treatment. We are all Scouts - not boy Scouts, not girl Scouts, just plain Scouts. The overall decision tells them that they are lesser than the boys, which is the fundamentally frustrating part. But here’s a very basic example:

My local camp has five weeks of Scouts BSA summer camp. Two have been designated as boys-only, leaving just three weeks for girls to choose from - one in June and two in July.

- Boys have the freedom to go to camp any week they choose out of those five. Girls don’t.

- Boys can work their camp schedule around family vacations, trips to the grandparents, child custody arrangements, summer jobs, or summer school. Girls have to fit in their camp plans around the boys’ favored weeks.

- Boys can attend camp with their troop and then return the next week for provisional camp. Girls only have that option once because of how the weeks are split.

- Boys’ troop leadership can pick whatever weeks they want their unit to attend. Girls’ troop leadership has to arrange their schedules around these leftover weeks in order to attend as a troop. That can be difficult for many leaders and parents whose work may not be as forgiving as others.

It’s also fascinating that Cubs aren’t having this discussion. Resident camps and day camps aren’t segregated by gender. Why should Scouts BSA camps be?

This simply should not be an issue in 2019 with a new unified program.

Well, let's start from the bottom up.

The BSA didn't create a unified program at the Scout BSA level, they created a gender-segregated program.  It's no secret I don't agree with the decision to bring girls into scouting, but, anybody with a brain saw the gender-segregated solution was going to cause more problems than solutions.  As for the Cub Scouts, we don't have the discussion because the packs are co-ed but the Dens are segregated.  Mostly a cosmetic difference but a difference non-the-less.

Working around family vacations, grandparents, custody, summer jobs, summer school, and work schedules is just the way summer camp scheduling works.  While I am sympathetic to the argument about provisional camping,  I'm less sympathetic to the "any week they want" arguments.  Why are you limiting yourself to just your Council's summer camp?  If they are setting a schedule that doesn't work for your unit, vote with your feet and dollars.  Troops do this all the time over program and for any number of other issues.  I guarantee if your girls troop goes somewhere other than your council camp next summer you'll get asked why plenty of times next fall.

Finally, there's only harm if one decides there is.  Take deep breaths and find solutions you and your girls are happy with.

"People are not disturbed by things, but by the views they take of them."  -Epictetus

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This is what our council is doing.
https://www.hoac-bsa.org/scouts-bsa-all-girl-camping-session-at-bartle-2018-10-05
For context, this will take place for 1 session out of the 5 we have on the reservation. The camp used is 1 of 3 camps on the reservation. They are in relative close proximity to each other. They will share some program areas such as lakefront, shotgun range, climbing tower and COPE course...and probably a couple that aren't coming to mind.
So, it's separated, but not so much....

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1 hour ago, WAKWIB said:

This is what our council is doing.
https://www.hoac-bsa.org/scouts-bsa-all-girl-camping-session-at-bartle-2018-10-05
For context, this will take place for 1 session out of the 5 we have on the reservation. The camp used is 1 of 3 camps on the reservation. They are in relative close proximity to each other. They will share some program areas such as lakefront, shotgun range, climbing tower and COPE course...and probably a couple that aren't coming to mind.
So, it's separated, but not so much....

So if I read that right, only one of the two properties will allow girls at all. And they get segregated 21 camp on One session. So that's 14 out of 15 for all boys and can only go to 1 camp on the last session which in my experience is the least desirable. The last session being mid-july will be the hottest particularly in Missouri, and the staff often is tired worn out and not nearly as enthusiastic as in earlier weeks.

And based on my understanding of requirements for Mic-o-say no girl will be eligible this year and won't be able to become full members for another couple of years. Presuming my understanding is accurate, if I were involved in a girl Troop I would feel slighted. But maybe that's just me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, shortridge said:

My concern is that my Scouts’ entire program experience will be negatively impacted (being shunted to less desirable weeks), that their options will be limited (they can’t attend whatever week they choose), and that the overall quality of their Scouting experience will be diminished 

@shortridge then I really hope you don't belong to Heart of America Council.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Chris1 said:

So if I read that right, only one of the two properties will allow girls at all. And they get segregated 21 camp on One session. So that's 14 out of 15 for all boys and can only go to 1 camp on the last session which in my experience is the least desirable. The last session being mid-july will be the hottest particularly in Missouri, and the staff often is tired worn out and not nearly as enthusiastic as in earlier weeks.

And based on my understanding of requirements for Mic-o-say no girl will be eligible this year and won't be able to become full members for another couple of years. Presuming my understanding is accurate, if I were involved in a girl Troop I would feel slighted. But maybe that's just me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep,  you read it right. The Mic-O-Say part will work out in due course. We won't be bending or changing any requirements for that. 
And, as far as being slighted by being parked into one session at one camp, yes, there is an emerging negative reaction to that, and the news of it just hit Friday (10/5) afternoon. I expect it to pick up steam. There are quite a few linked troops developing and it will be a big strain. It's not what the enthusiastic supporters of BSA4Girls in our area envisioned.  One option for the linked troops may be to have the boy troops camping in one of the two adjacent camps during that same 5th session. I have not heard anything about that option, but I wouldn't be too surprised if that's what's offered.


This is perhaps another reason why coed needed to be just that, instead of the hybrid we got from National.  

Edited by WAKWIB

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