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Eagledad

Why the BSA should have stayed away from the transgender trend, part 2

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27 minutes ago, SSScout said:

The striving for Power and Authority seems to be s a prime example of human emotional desire.  Even in computer stuff. 

 

Well said. Character is choosing moral actions over emotional desire. 

Barry

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7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The BSA seems to at the very least reference morality with higher power in the same objective of preparing young young people for life.

Possibly.  My point is that they don't require that its members share such a belief.

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Oh sure, a lawyer can find loop holes if that's what it takes to be part of the group.

Any lawyer in particular?

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

But I think your reasoning (defense) of higher power and morality only make understanding harder, not clearer.

Maybe.  I suppose it is clearer and simpler to say that you have a book right here that contains all of the moral lessons and requirements that mankind needs, handed down from on high.  It is much more complicated and messy if you believe that morality is aggregate result of thousands of years of human interactions, but that's what I think.

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

It guess morality really is accountability of our actions toward others. While most believers actions are accountable to god, you believe your actions are only accountable to you. 

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't tell me what I believe.  In fact, I believe all of us are accountable to each other for our actions, although the "enforcement" of that accountability tends to be flawed and inconsistent, because we are human beings.

7 hours ago, Eagledad said:

But I think, while you protest using a higher authority for judgement, most feel higher authority is the law.  

I'm not protesting anything.  We can all believe what we want to believe.  Which gets back to the main point of the BSA's openness to a wide variety of beliefs.

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2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

For those interested in reading about the formation of ethics from an atheists viewpoint; ie not relying on religious or other teachings. Here is a link to an essay on the American Atheists website. While many may disagree with his viewpoint, it is a good read to understand where an atheist is coming from.  https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/

  

I've read articles like that before.  It's an academic exercise to create a morality based on love, beauty, fairness and enlightenment.  The challenge is that these are not necessarily universals.  And, people may not have the resources to live at that enlightened level.  Or, they could have so many resources they do not need to live at that level.  Resources are not just money, but also health, youth, their own beauty, physical ability, intellectual ability, environment, family, society, etc.  

It's why I'd strongly argue there is no "morality" outside the laws of the state ... that you will be caught violating ... and that have ramifications.  

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8 hours ago, fred johnson said:

This is NOT about BSA.  This is about your using this blog for a personal agenda outside BSA and being willing to bring everyone down with you.  

When people who belong to an organization that denegrates atheists like the BSA, and denegrate the morals of atheists, I'll respond.  If you don't like that, that's your problem.

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4 hours ago, SSScout said:

My comment never implied such.  I am pointing out that EVERYONE gets some behavior/cultural preference/moral training from their upbringing, which , as they grow up, either accept or reject .

And it's always, always, always religion that gets the credit.

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1 hour ago, fred johnson said:

The challenge is that these are not necessarily universals. 

Neither are religious tenets, of course, but plenty of people pretend they are, which is simply not dealing with reality.

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2 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

And it's always, always, always religion that gets the credit.

BUT that's not what I said ! That's your defensive assumption !  You are making what I said about previous education and experience come to make "religion" claim responsibility for your present condition.  If, after all your previous  education and experience,  "Religion" gets the "credit",  how did that come about?  Mr. Merlyn decided, NOT "religion", what Mr. Merlyn wishes to espouse.  I am merely (merely) observing that even Mr. Merlyn had previous education and experience and came to EITHER reject or accept or (dare I say) adapt those previous experiences and education/training/brainwashing as individually seen fit.  Religion takes no credit for YOUR present condition. Merlyn takes credit for Merlyn's condition, as each human must.  If the "faith of our father's" speaks to thy condition, so be it. If not, as the carny operator said, "Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice."  Karma not withstanding.....

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21 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

When people who belong to an organization that denegrates atheists like the BSA, and denegrate the morals of atheists, I'll respond.  If you don't like that, that's your problem.

Well ... I hope you create accounts on Arabic forums, Jewish forums, Hindu forums, fellowship of Christian Athlete sites, Alcoholics Anonymous and badger them too.  

I feel like I'm dealing with Donald Trump.  Someone who needs to pick a fight and bring people down to lift his position.  

Edited by fred johnson

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5 hours ago, fred johnson said:

I feel like I'm dealing with Donald Trump.  Someone who needs to pick a fight and bring people down to lift his position.  

Typical BSA member insulting an atheist for not being humble when insulted.

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23 hours ago, SSScout said:

That's your defensive assumption !

SSScout, theists (mostly Christians in the US) are constantly using that exact argument to claim atheists are innately immoral, as people like Eagledad has.  I will not interpret it any other way.

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Merlyn, I am in no way claiming you or your actions are immoral !  I did say that your previous education/experience  had some effect on you   AND that your thoughtful consideration led you to either accept or reject it.  It is not logical (!) to claim religion as  the basis of your present atheistic beliefs and I did not , so far as I can see, claim such for you. . 

People of faith do the same thing and obviously  reach a different conclusion. They also went thru previous education and experience and (hopefully) thru thoughtful consideration,  came to accept or reject or modify as they see appropriate to reach their present state of belief. Or disbelief.  

Even that great logician and deductionist  Hercule Poirot finds worth in his inherited faith.  Such is the blessing of an independent mind.  And you, mon ami Merlyn, certainly have that ! 

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13 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

SSScout, theists (mostly Christians in the US) are constantly using that exact argument to claim atheists are innately immoral, as people like Eagledad has.  I will not interpret it any other way.

I have consistently said in our discussions over the years that pragmatically, morality can only come from God because it never changes.  All humans are born innately immoral. The difference between atheists and theists is atheists can claim any behavior as moral, while theist are held accountable to one morality from God. Atheist say slavery is immoral today, but they could say the opposite tomorrow and wouldn't be wrong because they are only accountable to ambitious emotional fickle man (the guy with the biggest stick, remember?). Theist are accountable to only one morality.

Barry

Edited by Eagledad

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15 hours ago, Merlyn_LeRoy said:

Typical BSA member insulting an atheist for not being humble when insulted.

You are so so so ignorant and not knowing what you are really saying.  

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1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

... Theist are accountable to only one morality. ...

I think this is an over-generalization. Knowing the mind of God as it pertains to the matters of men is not uniform among theists. Even in this camp, we have those who think God's hand rests with the mighty.

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13 minutes ago, qwazse said:

I think this is an over-generalization. Knowing the mind of God as it pertains to the matters of men is not uniform among theists. Even in this camp, we have those who think God's hand rests with the mighty.

You are saying atheist believe morality comes from God?

Barry

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