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Eagledad

Why the BSA should have stayed away from the transgender trend, part 2

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33 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Being a transgendered person is not about “behavior,” as you repeatedly claim in thread after thread. It is about living a life.

That's not a logical conclusion to make, and it doesn't 'protect' anybody from the truth. Living a life is all about behavior. The choices we make - our behavior - define the life we life. Choosing to adopt a transgendered lifestyle is a set of behavioral choices, as with any lifestyle. True, one might feel compelled at some deep level to adopt such a mode of being, but the decision to follow through with those feelings still constitutes one's behavior. That's in no way a judgement call, an insult, nor a derogatory statement - behavior is simply the correct term to describe the cumulative summation of one's personal choices. 

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50 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

behavior is simply the correct term to describe the cumulative summation of one's personal choices. 

The word “behavior” suggests something that is temporary and can be changed. Temper tantrums are a “bad behavior”; that can be altered. Studying for school is a “good behavior”; that should be rewarded.

Being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or heterosexual is not a choice. It is not a behavior. That terminology demeans an entire group of people by suggesting that a central part of who they are can change if they just want to.

Under your definition, you’re OK if I were to call your religion a behavior, right? It’s just a lifestyle. It’s only a choice. It doesn’t represent anything deeper than following through on your feelings.

Or how about being straight, as most people are? You can choose to stop being straight by just halting that heterosexual behavior and switching to the other side. It’s a choice, after all.

Edited by shortridge

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2 minutes ago, shortridge said:

The word “behavior” suggests something that is temporary and can be changed. Temper tantrums are a “bad behavior”; that can be altered. Studying for school is a “good behavior”; that should be rewarded.

Being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or heterosexual is not a choice. It is not a behavior. That terminology demeans an entire group of people by suggesting that a central part of who they are can change if they just want to.

Under your definition, you’re OK if I were to call your religion a behavior, right? It’s just a lifestyle. It’s only a choice. It doesn’t represent anything deeper than following through on your feelings.

It only has a negative connotation that you give to it. Religious practice is absolutely made up of behaviors. Religion or lack their of is a choice. It is a behavior. It is based of our feelings and ideas about life and our purpose for living. 

To suggest otherwise is to suggest we do not have free will in life. That our lives are the outcome of genetically determined sequences that we have no control over and that's all we'll ever be. 

One's sexual preferences are not a choice in my opinion. But what behaviors I engage in because of those preferences are a choice. 

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12 minutes ago, shortridge said:

Being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, or heterosexual is not a choice. It is not a behavior. That terminology demeans an entire group of people by suggesting that a central part of who they are can change if they just want to.

The whole tone of your posts in this thread is based on your opinion of whether or not these lifestyles are a choice. We can agree or disagree about choice, but that is not the theme of this thread. 

Accept for your comment about my opinion of scouters contributing to abuse in this matter, every poster has been respectful.  

Barry

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I do find it interesting that a 14 year old cannot hold a full time job, cannot typically open a banking account without parental permission, is not able to enter contracts, cannot legally operate a motor vehicle in the US, is not able to consent for sexual activities, serve in the military, vote in elections, cannot purchase a gun, cannot buy liquor or beer, does not have a choice and is required to attend school, cannot fly unaccompanied without a parent or guardian authorizing, and other myriad of items they are not able to do because as a society we have deemed them not mature enough to handle these tasks and responsibilities.....

YET.......

This same 14 year old (or younger) determines they are transgender and everyone is supposed to be on board with this and accept that decision at face value.  To question is to be genderphobic and discriminatory.  Not saying there might not be reasons behind that decision, but seriously, this does call for a rational conversation and exploration and a clear understanding by the youth on the ramifications (short term and long term) of this decision.

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5 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I do find it interesting that a 14 year old cannot hold a full time job, cannot typically open a banking account without parental permission, is not able to enter contracts, cannot legally operate a motor vehicle in the US, is not able to consent for sexual activities, serve in the military, vote in elections, cannot purchase a gun, cannot buy liquor or beer, does not have a choice and is required to attend school, cannot fly unaccompanied without a parent or guardian authorizing, and other myriad of items they are not able to do because as a society we have deemed them not mature enough to handle these tasks and responsibilities.....

YET.......

This same 14 year old (or younger) determines they are transgender and everyone is supposed to be on board with this and accept that decision at face value.  To question is to be genderphobic and discriminatory.  Not saying there might not be reasons behind that decision, but seriously, this does call for a rational conversation and exploration and a clear understanding by the youth on the ramifications (short term and long term) of this decision.

A quote from Toronto Gender Identity Clinic at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in the article: "We know from multiple studies that around 80 percent of gender dysphoric children will desist from their cross-sex identification in childhood to identify with their natal sex. Most of these will grow up to be gay or lesbian; a substantial minority have also been diagnosed with autism.".....................Watchful waiting, which was the treatment of choice for many years, has been dismissed as false and harmful with no evidence for this assertion.

Barry

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Based on the variety of opinions expressed here, and seeing what governments and sports organizations have gone through struggling with this- it seems the BSA did something pretty rational.  Just let the parents and local leaders work it out.  If half- or some significant percentage of doctors and parents feel strongly either way, with no particular expertise (or business) taking sides on this, why would BSA want or need to weigh in?  Actually the BSA never actually had a “policy” on this, and they never asked for the birth certificate to be presented in the past 108 years.  So all they really did was say they will accept the gender the parents indicate.  I think they just want to serve kids and families and frankly, it doesn’t seem to make sense to expect the BSA to be the only organization in the world to come up with a perfect solution to this one.

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10 hours ago, Eagledad said:

The discussion isn't about the youth, it's about adults contributing to the harm of the youth by accepting their transgender as normal. 

So do you think rejecting a youth is the way to "not cause harm to the Youth"?  

I strive to treat everyone I encounter and all youth I work with, with dignity, caring and respect without judgement. No matter who or what they are, and no matter what they are going through. No matter what choices or mistakes they may have made.  I want all youth to have a trusted adult mentor to which they can turn for support and guidance, when they are confused or feel they can't talk to anyone else. 

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16 hours ago, Eagledad said:

It's politically correct to accept the youth at their word these days. But it's courageous to say, we don't want to be part of the complicated situation the youth is struggling through at the moment. 

Barry

That doesn't sit well with me, it doesn't sound like courage but fear. Still, I guess admitting you're afraid can be a brave thing to do. 

I would have thought the brave thing to do would be to "do your best" to "help other people". I guess if from your point of view you are not helping by accepting them as they are then logically "help other people" is what you think you'd be doing by excluding them. I think you're wrong, but hey, mine's just another opinion, worth what you paid for it. All grist to the mill, life's rich pageant, etc etc.

Edited by ianwilkins
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9 hours ago, Chris1 said:

So do you think rejecting a youth is the way to "not cause harm to the Youth"?  ...

Well, when a youth started identifying as a slinger of cannabis, we rejected him. It seems to have helped.

Over the years we have discussed reasons for rejecting other youth for their own good.

But, let's suppose rejecting a youth is harmful. Take the youth rejecting his/her biological self, is he/she not also causing harm? Are we not obliged to exhort him/her to refrain?

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There is a movement now, a big movement, to accept statements of identity from kids at face value, without question. This movement expects ALL to comply--parents, doctors, teachers, anyone in contact with the kid. We are told that to not accept these statements, and to not encourage them along this path, is harmful.

However, this is not "settled science." This movement is social in nature, and the evidence that accepting as fact a new self-identity is helpful, is not there. There is a call for more research.

As Scouters, are we helping or harming these kids by encouraging them along this path, as this new social movement demands? 

Some feel that doing something is better than doing nothing--the child can always change back later, if he was wrong. Unless he goes too far, and biological changes are made before full maturity, self-realization, and the capacity to make huge, life-altering decisions are reached. Unless the social implications turn out to be too much for a child to deal with.

As a person of responsibility in a child's life, I do not want to be complicit in encouraging a such a decision before maturity.

So what, as Scouters, are we to do with these kids? How do we accept them for who they are, when they can't yet know, with certainty, who they are at this stage? 

How do we stand up for them, and their need for space and time to mature, when the social tide is pushing them to make decisions they are not ready for?

 

 

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In my kids school there is 1 transgender youth ... out of 600 students.  Their parents fought it for about 4 years (the child wanted to be a boy starting at 5).  The child missed classes, was in therapy, had limited friends, etc.  Finally after discussions with doctors the parents gave up the fight and now use boy pronouns and name with their son.  He attends classes, has friends, and has a much improved life outlook.

I don’t think a 5 year old thought it was “cool” to be LGBTQ.  What defines gender?  Some say XX or XY.  Guess what, there are people with male genitalia while having XX chromosomes.  There are people with female genetalia with XY.  There are some youth born (Dominican Republic) that appear to be female but male genetalia appear when they hit puberty as there different hormones that lead to development between fetus and adolescents.  And these are just the physiological gender issues.  

I agree that science is in its infancy here but to say a scout leader or organization is the authority in this matter is crap and they should not be making calls on this. If the parents and youth decide they identify with a specific gender then scouts should accept that.  I would actually find it more damaging to my son to have youth in his unit that believe LGBTQs are immoral and bad than being around a LGBTQ youth; however, I wouldn’t support kicking out anti LGBTQ scouts (as long as they don’t violate G2SS/YPT)  just as I didn’t and wouldn’t support banning LGBTQ youth (with the same caveat).

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47 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I agree that science is in its infancy here but to say a scout leader or organization is the authority in this matter is crap and they should not be making calls on this. If the parents and youth decide they identify with a specific gender then scouts should accept that.  I would actually find it more damaging to my son to have youth in his unit that believe LGBTQs are immoral and bad than being around a LGBTQ youth; however, I wouldn’t support kicking out anti LGBTQ scouts (as long as they don’t violate G2SS/YPT)  just as I didn’t and wouldn’t support banning LGBTQ youth (with the same caveat).

I'm a little unclear, the reason I say the BSA should stay out is because they are not experts and don't any authority. While the parents were working with their child in therapy, how should the compassionate scout leaders work with the scout? What if the scout leader's compassionate mentoring is contrary to the therapy? Or is therapy crap also. 

Your attitude about this subject scares me the most because your opinion is set and closed. This is a very complicated subject and the point of the article is that experts are not getting it completely right. The BSA needs to stay away because many volunteers think they do have this figured out and already have a plan for working with the scout. This post is the most convincing of why the BSA needs to stay out of it.

By the way, you have referenced your opinion of moral beliefs in other posts. Let's not change the subject in this discussion, but since your so open about your bias against other peoples beliefs and ideas, why don't you start a new discussion where you can get it all out. Explain what you suggest for those of us who don't have your beliefs of moral behaviors. You might even learn something yourself.

Barry

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I don't think there was any way the BSA could have "stayed away" from this issue.  It was not like National woke up one day and decided it wanted to let "trans males" join the Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts.  (It never would have been an issue with Venturing anyway.)  A boy (using his preferred identification) wanted to join the Cub Scouts, with the approval of his mother.  Based on then-existing policy they were told he can't join because his birth certificate says he is female.  Mom filed a complaint with the New Jersey (it's always New Jersey) Division on Civil Rights, they decided to go after the BSA, and the BSA had to decide whether it wanted to get involved in litigation (again).  They decided not to, and they changed the policy, which (unlike the policy on gay youth) has a local option.  I don't think they did a lot of studying into the concerns you mention.  Basically the policy is that if the parents sign an application saying their child is a boy, he will be admitted as a boy.  And now, with the additional changes in membership policy, the "trans" issue becomes an issue of den or troop placement rather than a real "membership" issue.

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