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Treflienne

Only six months till girls in Scouts BSA.

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On 8/12/2018 at 11:55 PM, oldbuzzard said:

Maybe our troop is pushing things too much, but in 6 months it won't matter, and the question was what is your troop doing to prepare for coed Scouts BSA. That's what we're doing.

But in 6 month's it will matter. You have set an example. You and your CO have appointed yourselves the judge of which rules should and should not be followed in an organization you do not run alone. Your Scouts, other Scouters and Scouts have witnessed this and may well model you and your CO. Perhaps they will not have your advanced wisdom to know which rules are good and which are bad. Maybe they choose to ditch some important G2SS or YPT rules, because they know better.

I once had a discussion with a famous athlete who stated he was not a role model, and people should not choose to model their behavior after him. I told him that was not his choice, people choose who they emulate, go or bad. His only choice was if the he was going to model good behavior or bad. Needless to say he did no take to my message, because her knew best, and, frankly, simply wanted to do what he wanted to do, regardless of others.

There are a number of BSA rules and policies I disagree with and I work to change them. However, I follow them, because I know youth are watching what I do and some will model my behavior, be it right or wrong.

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14 hours ago, gblotter said:

From a different forum thread, a Scout has been denied Eagle by BSA National because he missed the age deadline by two months. There has been community outcry and petitions over this.

See https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/greenburgh/2018/08/15/boy-scouts-no-eagle-rank-greenburghs-hari-channagiri/996348002/

So if the CO,  CC, and SM have a thoughtful organized dissent with BSA National over this issue, I guess it's ok for them to just go purchase some Eagle badges on eBay and award them to the boy anyway, right? We are justified in disobeying BSA National (over any issue I suppose), so long as we are thoughtful and organized in our defiance, right?

Sure.  I've decided that's perfectly fine for them to have thoguhtful, organized, dissent.  I'd much rather have some people breaking BSA rules in a safe, organized way.  What I'm suggesting is really not different from groups all over the country who organize protests and directly lobby people in positions of authority.   

Let's be realistic too.  This troop publicly pushing the edge is way more likely to result in some sort of change than a strongly worded letter to you SE or national.  It's great to say - "you should make your case through official channels."  But remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Finally - why do you really care if someone disobey's national.  I don't report to BSA national and other than accepting my $25 and registration, they're not in a position of authority over me.  Yes, I think that we should try to follow the program as best we can.  Yes, the health and safety guidelines in the G2SS provide me some guidance and cover in case something happens.  But, if we have a specific conscientious objection, we should make that objection heard, known, and seen.  Isn't that part of being a good leader?  If the BSA knows what this troop is doing and looks the other way, that's on national.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Isn't that part of being a good leader?

No doubt there are plenty of agitators and activists who would agree. However, open defiance and boastful disobedience is definitely not how I define good leadership in Scouting.

Some Scouters on this forum are quite particular about following every guideline and regulation issued by BSA. This scrutiny and hair-splitting can sometimes reach levels of absurdity (e.g. to wear a neckerchief over the collar or under the collar). Then I read threads like this where other Scouters brag about breaking fundamental rules. Such a fascinating discussion.

 

12 hours ago, ParkMan said:

Finally - why do you really care if someone disobey's national.

In truth, it doesn't matter to me. I am an LDS Scouter, and our troop of 30 Scouts will be dissolved at the end of 2019. I'll be continuing along straight ahead as BSA takes a left turn. I'm not surprised that BSA's recent changes are still not enough to satisfy the detractors and dissenters. I don't expect they will ever be satisfied. I have accepted that this is no longer the Scouting program that captured my heart and imagination as a youth. Do what you want with it. The bumblers and liars at BSA National have made quite a mess of things in my view. I'm the last person who will be running to their defense at this point, so defy, disobey, and dissent all you like.

Edited by gblotter

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On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:53 AM, walk in the woods said:

I told my parents about the squirt gun ban.  When they picked themselves up off the ground from laughing, they happily filled their kids and their own supersoakers and had a rollicking good time.  But, the BSAs credibility took a hit.  Same thing happens when units openly ignore the membership standards.  

There is a bit of a misunderstanding on the ban.  The BSA does not ban laser tag guns, paintball guns or squirt guns - the BSA is fine with these activities as target practice.  What they ban is using these simulated weapons to have games of tag or gun fights where Scouts target other Scouts - they do it to be consistent with their gun safety teaching on the range.  I find it a bit ironic how we often complain about the BSA not being consistent about things then when they are consistent about something, we complain about that.

More importantly though - understand that the BSA isn't going to police every unit out there on whether they are having squirt gun battles or going to paintball ranges and laser tag arenas and battling it out.  They don't do it for anything else they won't do it for this.  What will happen is if you decide to do these things, and someone gets hurt and decides to sue, the BSA will be brandishing that ban and telling insurance companies and judges that you violated well published and well known rules and they are therefore not liable for any injuries - that it is all on you and the Chartered Organization.

So go ahead, flout the "ban" - the BSA has protected itself the best they can.

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14 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

There is a bit of a misunderstanding on the ban.  The BSA does not ban laser tag guns, paintball guns or squirt guns - the BSA is fine with these activities as target practice.  What they ban is using these simulated weapons to have games of tag or gun fights where Scouts target other Scouts - they do it to be consistent with their gun safety teaching on the range.  I find it a bit ironic how we often complain about the BSA not being consistent about things then when they are consistent about something, we complain about that.

I got to hand it to you CP, you are consistent. Your creatively stretched reasoning reminds me of Evil Knievel jumping the Grand Canyon.

18 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

More importantly though - understand that the BSA isn't going to police every unit out there on whether they are having squirt gun battles or going to paintball ranges and laser tag arenas and battling it out.  They don't do it for anything else they won't do it for this.  What will happen is if you decide to do these things, and someone gets hurt and decides to sue, the BSA will be brandishing that ban and telling insurance companies and judges that you violated well published and well known rules and they are therefore not liable for any injuries - that it is all on you and the Chartered Organization.

And when creative reasoning doesn't work, intimidate change with threats. Yep, sounds very inviting.

:unsure:

 Barry

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8 hours ago, gblotter said:

No doubt there are plenty of agitators and activists who would agree. However, open defiance and boastful disobedience is definitely not how I define good leadership in Scouting.

Some Scouters on this forum are quite particular about following every guideline and regulation issued by BSA. This scrutiny and hair-splitting can sometimes reach levels of absurdity (e.g. to wear a neckerchief over the collar or under the collar). Then I read threads like this where other Scouters brag about breaking fundamental rules. Such a fascinating discussion.

 

In truth, it doesn't matter to me. I am an LDS Scouter, and our troop of 30 Scouts will be dissolved at the end of 2019. I'll be continuing along straight ahead as BSA takes a left turn. I'm not surprised that BSA's recent changes are still not enough to satisfy the detractors and dissenters. I don't expect they will ever be satisfied. I have accepted that this is no longer the Scouting program that captured my heart and imagination as a youth. Do what you want with it. The bumblers and liars at BSA National have made quite a mess of things in my view. I'm the last person who will be running to their defense at this point, so defy, disobey, and dissent all you like.

Thanks for the reply.  I appreciate it.

Let me bring this back to the topic of preparing for girls in Scouting.  I know we're going to have troops that will look to do things their own way in regards to membership rules.  My point continues to be that I'd rather see troops be upfront and organized about pushing the boundaries breaking the rules.  For example, I'd rather see a troop be upfront and try to go co-ed than to simply skirt the rules by having a paper troop for girls.

That's not to say that I think troops should be rude or openly hostile towards the council and national leadership.  I believe that as adult leaders, how we conduct ourselves when we disagree is as valuable lesson for the Scouts in our troops.  For example, the Scoutmaster of our troop, and several of the ASMs, are openly critical and hostile towards council decisions and leadership.  Their actions bother me immensely.  I would much rather see adults who disagree, do so openly and professionally, than simply criticize but still follow the rules. 

This has come up on our troop.  The Scoutmaster keeps saying "if girls want to join, we'll just create a fake troop and let them join."  I think that's wrong.  If we really intend to run a co-ed troop, then by golly, let's be honest we're running a co-ed troop.  if the DE stops by and says "no", then we say thank you and register the Scouts anyways.  If the council still says no, then OK, we create a paper troop, but we be upfront with everyone that this is exactly what we're doing.  At the end of thy day, organization in Scouting is an inverted pyramid.  The council and national are here to provide the program to the units so we can bring Scouting to youth.

I'm fine with extending this concept to other issues in Scouting (as long as safety is not compromised) - but since that's not the topic of the thread, I'll leave that comment there.

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Posted (edited)

"prototroops"

Beneath Camp Meriwether's flagpole stood 11 girls, right arms bent and raised to their brows in a salute. In that moment, they made history.

The girls were among 200 boys at Camp Meriwether, Oregon's historic Boy Scouts camp, as they became pioneers in breaking down the 108-year-old scouting organization's gender barrier.The Boy Scouts of America officially introduce girls into its upper ranks early next year, but Camp Meriwether is taking the lead as the only scout camp in the Cascade Pacific Council to open its doors early to a handful of girls, 11 to 15, in preparation for a full transition into a coed camp next summer.

The girls are organized into posts, or "prototroops," as Todd McDonald, director of program and member experience for the Cascade Pacific Council calls them.

More at Source

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/08/historic_oregon_boy_scout_camp.html

Edited by RememberSchiff

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As this thread is about preparing for girls in the youth Scout portion of the organization (since they were already adult leaders, on Ships, in Crews, and part of Posts), here is what is happening at my unit.

The committee and all parents of current Scouts were asked to vote on the committee sponsoring a girl's troop. The vote was in favor, but not unanimous. A sharing of gear, and some financial sponsorship will be provided to help get things off of the ground. 

I have already offered to be an adult leader of the new Troop. My goal is simple - ensure that as we build a Troop with many new leaders, that the BSA soul is not lost. This means youth lead, strong Patrols, hands off parenting, etc. 

It should be an interesting adventure.

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On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 2:36 PM, Eagledad said:

I got to hand it to you CP, you are consistent. Your creatively stretched reasoning reminds me of Evil Knievel jumping the Grand Canyon.

And when creative reasoning doesn't work, intimidate change with threats. Yep, sounds very inviting.

:unsure:

 Barry

Congratulations.  You win.  You've been trying to drive me out of these forums with your personal attacks on me for years.  Your bullying finally worked.  This will be my final post.   

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13 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Congratulations.  You win.  You've been trying to drive me out of these forums with your personal attacks on me for years.  Your bullying finally worked.  This will be my final post.   

Accountability isn't bullying, it's balance.

Sorry to see you go, the list will miss you.

Barry

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19 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Congratulations.  You win.  You've been trying to drive me out of these forums with your personal attacks on me for years.  Your bullying finally worked.  This will be my final post.

 

The quote below is from @CalicoPenn posted on March 9, 2018 telling me to quit Scouting.

If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/17/2018 at 4:20 PM, NJCubScouter said:

Can we please restrict this thread to the subject of preparing for female Scout BSA troops in six months?  If you want to discuss water guns for the 100th time, there is no fee for starting another thread.

Ok then, can we get back on topic?

@NJCubScouter @MattR  @desertrat77

Edited by RememberSchiff

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Anyone else having this issue in their troop?  Our current troop leaders seem to have a very big hand in the new troop and IMHO too much so.  The new troop is supposed to operate with it's own leaders and PLC.  It shouldn't be a troop that exists to just do what the boy troop PLC decided to do.

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4 hours ago, mashmaster said:

Anyone else having this issue in their troop?  Our current troop leaders seem to have a very big hand in the new troop and IMHO too much so.  The new troop is supposed to operate with it's own leaders and PLC.  It shouldn't be a troop that exists to just do what the boy troop PLC decided to do.

This is a big concern for the folks in our troop, the SM, ASMs and Committee Members (along with COR) have discussed and continue to discuss it.  We have several points of view on BSA4G units from "its great" to "this is the end of scouts".... but the real rub is IF our CO moves forward with forming a parallel female unit... where does the leadership come from?

There is a fine line between offering support, in the form or meeting space, shared gear, and adult leader manpower.... But our support staff (ASMs and committee members) are sometimes spread thin supporting the troop.  Example - it is sometimes a challenge to have enough committee members at a regular weekly meeting to get a set of three to do BORs for boys wanting them.  Two weeks ago, I had to step in to attend a troop campout because one ASM had an emergency at work and could not stay the entire weekend.

The concern of many adults in our troop is IF we start a female troop (or help others do it).... how much of a time / talent drain is there going to be from the original unit?

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