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Treflienne

Only six months till girls in Scouts BSA.

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9 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

No, the guy states that in February 2019, girls will be able to join "Boy Scouts" (his words).

He goes on to state that "sometime in 2019" we will have our first female Eagle Scouts.

He clearly implies that girls will be able to join in February and earn their Eagle by the end of the year.

I think it is just one of a series of misunderstandings, in some cases by people who are paid to know better.

If the first girls join Scouts USA in Feb. 2019, there is no way any of them can make Eagle in 2019.  Unless time travel is invented between now and then. I know Iowa always wants to be the "first" in everything, but they are going to have to settle for a "tie" this time.

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5:00 mark-ish: Venturing is our older youth program 16 to 21 year olds

5:40 mark-ish: Boy patrols and girl patrols

And the ever present snarky remark about boys..... My daughter has been to more scout camps that most Eagle scouts

 

Anyway, as to the question.  Even though the kickoff of girls in Cub Scouts was June 11, my council decided to wait until the fall recruiting drive in Sept.  They've also said an existing pack can't accept less than 5 girls.  So the couple we had interested in joining this summer have decided to stay with GSUSA and the unit has decided not to recruit in competition with GSUSA.

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27 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

 

Does your daughter exist for the benefit of Girl Scouts or the other way around?

Huh?  My point was that this changes harms something that is important to both my wife and daughter and I'm not going to contribute to that.

BSA is free to make this change.  I'm free to not be a part of it. Others are free to be a part of it.

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1 minute ago, NJCubScouter said:

I think it is just one of a series of misunderstandings, in some cases by people who are paid to know better.

If the first girls join Scouts USA in Feb. 2019, there is no way any of them can make Eagle in 2019.  Unless time travel is invented between now and then. I know Iowa always wants to be the "first" in everything, but they are going to have to settle for a "tie" this time.

Maybe.  The OA has already set the equivalencies for induction and past camping experience counts (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/23/order-of-the-arrow-to-open-unit-elections-to-scouts-bsa-venturing-and-sea-scouts/.  If Discovery is equivalent to First Class, then it wont' take much in the way of mental gymnastics to say Pathfinder is the equivalent of Star or Life.  

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

5:00 mark-ish: Venturing is our older youth program 16 to 21 year olds

5:40 mark-ish: Boy patrols and girl patrols

And the ever present snarky remark about boys..... My daughter has been to more scout camps that most Eagle scouts

 

Anyway, as to the question.  Even though the kickoff of girls in Cub Scouts was June 11, my council decided to wait until the fall recruiting drive in Sept.  They've also said an existing pack can't accept less than 5 girls.  So the couple we had interested in joining this summer have decided to stay with GSUSA and the unit has decided not to recruit in competition with GSUSA.

Thanks! I guess I should have listened further.

Edit At the 4:05 mark or so he also calls the new organization "Scouting BSA."

Later he states that his daughter will probably not be "a Boy Scout" because she is already in Venturing.

 

Very sloppy.

 

7 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

Huh?  My point was that this changes harms something that is important to both my wife and daughter and I'm not going to contribute to that.

BSA is free to make this change.  I'm free to not be a part of it. Others are free to be a part of it.

You never know, competition might actually make Girl Scouts stronger. Lack of competition makes entities lazy. Girl Scouts may now have to step up their game.

As a father of a girl who is in both, bring on the competition. I want what is best for my daughter, not what is best for an organization she might join (they exist for us, we don't exist for them).

 

Edited by Hawkwin

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55 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

Maybe.  The OA has already set the equivalencies for induction and past camping experience counts (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/23/order-of-the-arrow-to-open-unit-elections-to-scouts-bsa-venturing-and-sea-scouts/.  If Discovery is equivalent to First Class, then it wont' take much in the way of mental gymnastics to say Pathfinder is the equivalent of Star or Life.  

The Discovery award and First Class rank are like apples and oranges. Although they may be useful benchmarks when finding out which members should be honored, neither in itself would automatically confer the other. Case in point, boy scouts of any rank (even Eagle), have to go through Pathfinder before they could earn Discovery as there's very little on the trail to first class that would count toward those requirements.

Now, there may be female venturers who have demonstrated mastery of First Class skills. However, she may not have bothered to earn Discovery. Could her experience (including positions of responsibility held) in her crew count in a newly adopted troop? National advancement team has been tight-lipped on that one. It's not on any syllabus that I know of. Therefore, I would say no boots-on-the-ground are prepared to handle that one.

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7 hours ago, walk in the woods said:

Maybe.  The OA has already set the equivalencies for induction and past camping experience counts (https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/23/order-of-the-arrow-to-open-unit-elections-to-scouts-bsa-venturing-and-sea-scouts/.  If Discovery is equivalent to First Class, then it wont' take much in the way of mental gymnastics to say Pathfinder is the equivalent of Star or Life.  

Today, a boy can be registered in both (nationally, the majority of males in Venturing are dual registered to a troop), and this equivalency does not exist.  If a male were to say leave a troop as a first class scout and join Venturing, he may chose to continue to pursue Eagle using the Boy Scout advancement track.  If he decides to pursue the Venturing tack though, he starts at square one with Pathfinder.  why would the BSA ever change that for females to go in reverse? That would to me be very much against the "same program" and "nothing is really changing" statements we have heard to date. 

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Our Charter Organization will not be starting any Girl Troops.  I think with the current rules in place about requiring a female to be at all events and outings is going to be hard.  Unfortunately, I don't think this was well thought out and not properly planned.  I think the powers that be forgot the Scout Motto  "BE PREPARED".   They certainly are not in this case.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/7/2018 at 2:28 PM, Treflienne said:

It's only six months till girls in Scouts BSA.  Will you be ready to start up a girls' troop in February?

Our troop has a "patrol" of girls at summer camp for the past 2 weeks. We run our own camp with usually one other troop. We've regularly had 1 or 2 associated Venture crews that are majority female doing all camp activities . Our girl patrol sent in registrations as Scouts which were rejected. We refused to take the apps back. I *think* council converted them to Venture apps and we refused to take the cards. Anyway, all the females are over 14 but we invited younger girls and would have allowed them if they wanted to attend. This is the female scouts' first troop activity, some of them did a entirely mom/daughter BWCA trip this summer at the same time the troop was sending 3 crews to the BWCA. The biggest issue has been how we are going to recognize them at the closing campfire since we can't give them merit badges. I'll see what they've come up with tomorrow night.

So yes. We have a committee. We have female scouters. Half the girls at camp will age out before girls are "allowed" in February, so we also have a younger group of female ASMs or ad hoc volunteers from our venture crew, which has been defunct but is spinning back up for an existing group of senior scouts who will age out during their senior year and want to do some more high adventure. Our CO has encouraged us to push the boundaries as much as possible.  We are planning to run linked troops which will look like a single troop with single sex patrols. We're just hoping to get enough new girls to have viable patrols.

ETA: Our Cub Scout troop is planning to run coed dens.. Council knows this. We are a designated referral pack for girls who can't form a viable den in other packs. When we told council they gritted their teeth and said they'd *strongly* prefer we not do that. We told them we were doing it anyway and they ignored it.

Edited by oldbuzzard
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10 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

 why would the BSA ever change that for females to go in reverse? That would to me be very much against the "same program" and "nothing is really changing" statements we have heard to date. 

That horse has already left the barn. 

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Posted (edited)

 

 

10 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

  If he decides to pursue the Venturing tack though, he starts at square one with Pathfinder.  why would the BSA ever change that for females to go in reverse? That would to me be very much against the "same program" and "nothing is really changing" statements we have heard to date. 

Program has already changed. After October 1, 2018 the patrol method will be replaced with the den method. If that is not a reversal, I do not know what is.

18- 20 year old SCOUTERS (emphasis)  will no longer county towards Youth Protection requirements. IMO that is a reversal. We spend 7 years to "Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" then when they become adults, say sorry, we don't trust ya. Heck National no longer trusts them, as seen by the Den Method removing the last bit of INDEPENDENT Patrols ( again emphasis). 

 

Forgot to add, Tigers can no longer do BB Guns. That is a reversal of policy.

Edited by Eagle94-A1
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On 8/7/2018 at 2:15 PM, carebear3895 said:

We are all trying to get ready for the full roll out of Family Scouting first. 

What is the full roll out of Family Scouting?

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On 8/9/2018 at 8:50 PM, oldbuzzard said:

Our troop has a "patrol" of girls at summer camp for the past 2 weeks. We run our own camp with usually one other troop. We've regularly had 1 or 2 associated Venture crews that are majority female doing all camp activities . Our girl patrol sent in registrations as Scouts which were rejected. We refused to take the apps back. I *think* council converted them to Venture apps and we refused to take the cards. Anyway, all the females are over 14 but we invited younger girls and would have allowed them if they wanted to attend. This is the female scouts' first troop activity, some of them did a entirely mom/daughter BWCA trip this summer at the same time the troop was sending 3 crews to the BWCA. The biggest issue has been how we are going to recognize them at the closing campfire since we can't give them merit badges. I'll see what they've come up with tomorrow night.

So yes. We have a committee. We have female scouters. Half the girls at camp will age out before girls are "allowed" in February, so we also have a younger group of female ASMs or ad hoc volunteers from our venture crew, which has been defunct but is spinning back up for an existing group of senior scouts who will age out during their senior year and want to do some more high adventure. Our CO has encouraged us to push the boundaries as much as possible.  We are planning to run linked troops which will look like a single troop with single sex patrols. We're just hoping to get enough new girls to have viable patrols.

ETA: Our Cub Scout troop is planning to run coed dens.. Council knows this. We are a designated referral pack for girls who can't form a viable den in other packs. When we told council they gritted their teeth and said they'd *strongly* prefer we not do that. We told them we were doing it anyway and they ignored it.

@oldbuzzard  If your troop and pack are determined to ignore BSA rules about girl membership, why not just buy a bunch of Eagle Scout awards on eBay and hand them out to any girl who wants them? Who cares if the girls meet the requirements - just do whatever you want (sounds like that's how you roll anyway, right?).

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Posted (edited)

I have mixed feelings about bringing in girls early and going coed.  I think that following the rules of separate troops and dens is good.  I think giving girls experiences is also good.  When you decide to skip the rules it gets a little confusing to go on your own.  I think it's interesting that this CO said, "push the boundaries".  I wonder what kind of CO would do that? 

I guessed this was in California, but it's in Minnesota, which is too close to home for me!  

If I had daughters, I think I would want my daughters in a troop that follows the program.  Because if a CO is winging it, do they lack discipline across the entire program?  Do they follow YPT and the guide to safe scouting?  How do you know what program you are getting if the organization is making stuff up as they go? 

Edited by WisconsinMomma
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On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 11:50 PM, oldbuzzard said:

Our troop has a "patrol" of girls at summer camp for the past 2 weeks. We run our own camp with usually one other troop. We've regularly had 1 or 2 associated Venture crews that are majority female doing all camp activities . Our girl patrol sent in registrations as Scouts which were rejected. We refused to take the apps back. I *think* council converted them to Venture apps and we refused to take the cards. Anyway, all the females are over 14 but we invited younger girls and would have allowed them if they wanted to attend. This is the female scouts' first troop activity, some of them did a entirely mom/daughter BWCA trip this summer at the same time the troop was sending 3 crews to the BWCA. The biggest issue has been how we are going to recognize them at the closing campfire since we can't give them merit badges. I'll see what they've come up with tomorrow night.

So yes. We have a committee. We have female scouters. Half the girls at camp will age out before girls are "allowed" in February, so we also have a younger group of female ASMs or ad hoc volunteers from our venture crew, which has been defunct but is spinning back up for an existing group of senior scouts who will age out during their senior year and want to do some more high adventure. Our CO has encouraged us to push the boundaries as much as possible.  We are planning to run linked troops which will look like a single troop with single sex patrols. We're just hoping to get enough new girls to have viable patrols.

ETA: Our Cub Scout troop is planning to run coed dens.. Council knows this. We are a designated referral pack for girls who can't form a viable den in other packs. When we told council they gritted their teeth and said they'd *strongly* prefer we not do that. We told them we were doing it anyway and they ignored it.

If I am not mistaken, the new rollout of girls in Troops does not start until 2019.  This is not a good example to be setting for these girls wanting to become part of this program.  It appears that from the top down in your Troop, you are telling these girls that if you don't like the rules or policies they don't have to follow them.  Just make up your own.  That is a very dangerous road to go down.  What are you going to do when the first girl gets injured or files a complaint?  They are not a registered Scouter.  I am not sure the Charter Organization would like to hear that they are being put out there for potential lawsuits.  Scary times these are.

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