Lost scouts Programs fault?

[John-in-KC 311]

Post deleted, sw truncated it. JWP(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[EagleInKY 14]

Richmond -

 

No,we're in difference councils. I'm LHC, you're in Bluegrass.

 

I go for the swatting with the G2SS approach. Not physically, but educationally. You may want to get your DE to support you, if you've got a good relationship with him/her.

 

There's nothing on the Tour Permit that asks for age. I don't know how that even comes into play, unless they asked you when you turned it in. When we went snow tubing, it was 60 degrees outside. I took it into the office that morning. She said "Snow tubing, are you nuts?". Only because it was so warm.

 

As for MBs at Scout Camp, we do have those same types of restrictions. I don't have a problem with that. It helps keep boys from getting into a position of a high probability of failure. It also gives 11 year olds something to look forward as 12 year olds, 12 year olds something to look forward as 13 year olds, etc. (Some of our 2nd year scouts said to me the other day that they couldn't wait for next year, because they wanted to take something.) It also helps manage class size for the camp staff.

[SMT376Richmond KY 10]

Ahhh now I remember Eagle, thanks for reminding me. That's what my council as a youth when I was a Life scout merged into. I can see the summer camp restrictions and perhaps a "special program" restriction but when the Troop tries to do some of these things the boys were sold on itself and gets shot down for something that's not in G2SS then I get a little miffed especially when I have to constantly tell the boys "no council says we can't do that till your 14." Come to think of it no wonder they don't come up with any ideas anymore we constantly. With my next tour permit I'm going to take my rolled up G2SS with me when I turn it in so the Nazi says no I'll have some ammunition. The boys want to take a canoe trip so I'm going to try it again with this amminution and see what goes.

[Bob White 20]

SMT376RichmondKY has private messaged me an apology which I gratefully accept. His greeting did not mean what it appeared to and he saw how it could easily have been interpreted that way based on how the letter read. Now I have to find out why my 16 year-old knew another phrase to attach to it...kids....

 

While I can see a council having the option to placce age criteria as a way to control camp program, just as national has the authority to set criteria for their camps, the council should not be putting artificial controls on MB and Troop activities done outside of the council/district program.

 

If you read the article that SMT376RichmondKY refers to on the national site, nowhere does it specifically restrict the activities he assumed it covered in his original post.

 

Just to clarify, while there are ability and training requirements for activities often associated with the term "high adventure". You must read the G2SS and the advancement requirements themselves to know if that conditin really exists. Too many people are operating scouting based on hearsay and folklore. The scouting program isn't what you think it is, it's what the BSA says it is.

 

SMT376RichmondKY, I hope this new info helps the troop to fully experience the fun and adventure of scouting. I hope you will make an effort to invite back those scouts that left and get them involved in the adventures they have been looking for.

 

Best of luck,

Bob White

 

[Eamonn 61]

Of course the big problem as I see it is that the DE is doing the presentation to the Boys.

Like it or not when the DE, does a presentation he or she is making a Sales Call.

Bad thing is that in some cases they don't know enough about the product they are selling (Your program.) And in some cases they might get a little bit carried away.

Sad as this is going to sound it is true. We have an Elementary School not that far from where I live. My son went there. The Principle is a great guy an Eagle Scout and serves on the District Committee. As a District our Cub Scout Density is running about 23%. At this school I think it's nearer 45%. I would go in to do the boy talks and I knew almost all the Lads. Talking to the little guys in first, second and even third grade wasn't that hard. The forth and fifth grade was tough. So many of these Lads had been in Cub Scouting and had quit. I laughed the other day when someone posted about the Lady having 101 crafts that could be made from toilet paper rolls. Sad to say these Lads were in packs where this Lady had been way too active!! These little guys had been let down by us. Trying to get them back is an uphill task. In their eyes Scouting is sissy!! At times I think we can try and over compensate by "Selling" something that isn't there.It's easy too talk about Philmont - The fact is that no troop from the District has been to Philmont in a coons age.

Recruiting Lads in the 5Th grade and above is hard. I have put my money on "One on One" recruiting. We have to somehow, someway get the Scouts that we have to do more to get their pals to join their troop. We have to somehow, someway get the troops to look at the vision of Scouting and then use the program and the methods to make the vision a reality.

I have gone into schools to do Boy Talks for Boy Scouts. At the other end of the District we have a troop that meets on a Friday night, over the years I have looked in and visited them. There they are six of them sometimes less sitting around a table in the church hall. The Leader is a nice chap, maybe not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, but a nice chap. Been through Wood Badge. But they don't do anything!!!

Can I put my hand on my heart and say that I want to see a young bright eyed, adventure seeking, fun loving Lad join that troop?

Eamonn

[EagleInKY 14]

Good luck Richmond. Let me know if you need me to hold them down while you whack them. I'm in Lexington regularly.

 

[Bob White 20]

In one of the rare moments on this forum I will disagree with Eamonn.

 

We pay local scouting professionals to increase money, manpower and membership (not necessarily in that order) during the day while we go about our regular lives.

 

I have no problem with a DE fulfilling that responsibility to his/her job, while I am at mine. I raise money to pay him to do that among other things.

 

I also have no problems with him or her sharing the promise of adventure made by the BSA. Those same things he said to those school kids can be found in the first few pages of every Boy Scout handbook.

 

Whether the DE told them about those activities in his talk, or if they read them in the handbook, those adventures are a part of the promise of scouting. If those promises are not being kept in the meetings and activities of the troop then it is not the DE or the handbook that has the boys down.

 

It is the troop leaders' responsibility to deliver on the promise of scouting. If a troop is not utilizing the adventure that is inside every scout age boy then they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

The very first 10 minutes of scoutmaster training is spent reading that promise of adventure and telling the Scoutmasters and assistants that it is their responsibility as leaders to keep the promise that the BSA has made.

 

Do not beat the messenger if you have failed to understand the message, or failed to deliver on the promise you chose to accept.

[SMT376Richmond KY 10]

Thanks to everyone that posted a reply. I learned alot. I now have some ammunition to use if needed I will be taking the canoeing merit badge book and my copy of G2SS with me when I resubmit the tour permit and float plan for the canoe trip that we planned for May. We're going to resubmit it for July's activity (nice hot weather activity huh)? If it comes back unapproved I'll post again but it I will not stand for "high adventure activity" as a reason for denial. Thanks again

[dsteele 20]

Not trying to be concilliatory, but I think Eamonn and Bob White both have part of it right.

 

The best results I have seen in my pack from boy talks is when the DE AND someone from the unit did it together. The DE is a pro -- he's a great speaker and gets the kids all jazzed up. Then he turns to me and says, "Mr. Guinea, tell them what they get to do this month when they join."

 

Then I tell them about the picnic next week, the games we're going to play, our summer field trips, etc. Specific stuff the DE doesn't have on the tip of his brain.

 

I'm also the one they're going to see on a regular basis, so if I can get them to like me in a few moments, the odds that they will join go way up.

 

If someone from our pack can't make it, we at least try to give the DE a copy of our upcoming schedule so he can give a pitch specific to our pack.

 

Unc.

[buffalo2 14]

Folks - this should get you to the BSA Age Appropriate Guidelines

http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf

Worth looking over

[Bob White 20]

Keep in mind the document that buffalo2 has provided is a "guideline" only and does not represent official BSA policies or restrictions. Those are found in the leaders manuals for the appropriate program and in the Guide to Safe Scouting.

[ronvo 10]

 

 

That looks to me like it is part of G2SS (an appendix) on the BSA G2SS site. So why is that just a "guideline" and not "official"

 

It says "these guidelines apply to Cub Scout Packs, Boys Scout Troops. Varsity..."

 

If this is just a "guideline" how are we to know "what is"official" and what isn't if it is published by BSA?

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Almost everything created by the BSA is "official" it's just not all "policy". Guidelines are just that, guidelines. They are there to provide a point of reference to steer you in the right general direction. When it comes to safety, the "policies" of the BSA are those in bold type as explained in the opening paragraphs of the Guide to Safe Scouting publication.

 

The policies that affect unit operation are found in four BSA publications depending on their topic.Thay are:

 

Safety: The Guide to Safe Scouting

 

Advancement: The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual

 

Uniforming: The Insignia Guide

 

Membership: The adult and youth Membership Application forms

 

And are repeated in part in other leader and program specific manuals.

 

PS

Thumper,

Failure to file a tour permit will not effect the secondary policy of accident protection on the scouts. What it can effect is the liability umbrella protection that protects the registered adults and the CO from losses sustained should you be sued by the family of the injured scout.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[SMT376Richmond KY 10]

I want to clear a point on my post. When I said "what do I do not file tour permits?" I was being facetious. I will continue to turn in tour permits for outings. I would be setting a poor example for the boys if, because I didn't agree with a rule, that I simply break it for our benifit. Are we not to teach them as part of citizenship that if they disagree with a rule, policy or law that they obey it until they work to change in it? Our tour permit will be turned into this afternoon I should know something soon. But please do not misunderstand that I condone putting myself or any other adult leader in jeopardy for lack of a tour permit. We simply would cancel the event if we do not have a tour permit. That is our task that the PLC assigns when planning events so if we drop the ball it is our responsibility to take the heat with the boys.

[SMT376Richmond KY 10]

Update!! Since I was at council yesterday afterwork turning in final SC paperwork. I decided to resubmit the tour permit and our float plan for the canoe trip I had mentioned in my orginal post. Guess what? The permit was approved this time around with no questions asked! It was the exact same wording we used last month nothing had been changed from the orginal that was denied as "high adventure activity". After I had the approval in hand I asked why it was denied last month. I didn't really understand the answer it sounded like gobble-d-goop to me. Oh well the permit was approved and the trip is on for July perhaps since I had my copy of G2SS that I took the tour permit out of in front of them they knew that I was armed and dangerous. Thanks for the ideas guys.