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National Meeting: Affirmation of DRP


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11 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don’t understand, duty to god is our values. How is that redundant?

Barry

I agree. We say the Lord's Prayer every week at mass. Is that redundant? Maybe so. But religion isn't supposed to be a "one and done" type of activity. It's a 24/7 thing. 

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I still don't understand why the need for a DRP. We don't have a DCP (Declaration of Citizenship Principles) and the Oath also states Duty to Country. We don't have a DHP (Declaration of Helping Princ

I think this resolution leaves out some things that are important to a correct understanding of what the BSA's religion policy actually is, "on the ground."  What I am about to say is "old hat" to mos

Oh, I would never do that.  The idea that one must "accept any and all beliefs"  was never my desire.   Like B-P  once said (paraphrase)   a Scout's  faith is generally determined by his family.  Sinc

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 10:53 AM, DuctTape said:

I still don't understand why the need for a DRP. We don't have a DCP (Declaration of Citizenship Principles) and the Oath also states Duty to Country. 

Sure we do. It's called the Pledge of Allegiance. We say it at every scout meeting.

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1 hour ago, Pale Horse said:

we can kick them out if they don't recite it or are admitted communists!

In our troop we nickname them 'Will' and send them down range for archery and rifle.

 

"Ready on the firing line?  Fire at Will!"

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For clarity, here is the complete DRP from the BSA Charter and Bylaws (Article IX, Section 1):

Quote

Declaration of Religious Principle
Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.
Activities
Clause 2. The activities of the members of the Boy Scouts of America shall be carried on under conditions which show respect to the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion, as required by the twelfth point of the Scout Law, reading, “Reverent. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.”
Freedom
Clause 3. In no case where a unit is connected with a church or other distinctively religious organization shall members of other denominations or faith be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly unique to that organization or church.
Leaders
Clause 4. Only persons willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program.
Clause 5. Other major policies are set forth in article IX of the Rules and Regulations.

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910). The DRP is self contradictory. You can't be "absolutely nonsectarian" and then demand that members show "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings". Which is why I believe that line is left off of the excerpt on the membership application.

Which is another thing, you shouldn't require members to have to agree with a declaration, then basically hide it from them.

Edited by Rick_in_CA
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How about we simply ask all members to vouch that they are not the center of the universe and that "something" greater and better than themselves may exist, whether they call it God, god, or something?  I am sure that would still find someone that thinks it is treading on their rights or personal space.  How broad do we have to go before we might reach "almost" consensus?  Obviously, total agreement is beyond our small capabilities.:rolleyes:

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8 minutes ago, Rick_in_CA said:

For clarity, here is the complete DRP from the BSA Charter and Bylaws (Article IX, Section 1):

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910). The DRP is self contradictory. You can't be "absolutely nonsectarian" and then demand that members show "recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings". Which is why I believe that line is left off of the excerpt on the membership application.

Which is another thing, you shouldn't require members to have to agree with a declaration, then basically hide it from them.

I'm sorry, Rick, but I know a lot of Jews, Muslims, and Christians who would not see themselves in that language. Not now. Not a century ago. The folks who left for Trail Life made that quite clear.

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54 minutes ago, Rick_in_CA said:

 

As can be seen, it has a rather Judaeo-Christian slant to things (which is not surprising as James West came over from the YMCA and it was 1910).

Just as an aside - the DRP was created in the first decade of the BSA (which is why it's in the Bylaws and not the Charter) and it appears that James West was a primary reason for it - but not in the way that the above implies.  The DRP was created to assuage the Catholic Church which was worried that because the BSA was closely tied to the YMCA at the start that the BSA would become a Protestant organization under James West and not be open to Catholics, not because James West wanted it.

Another aside, since it was mentioned - the BSA stated back in 1920 that Buddhism was compatible with the BSA and the DRP so hopefully we can put that one to rest.

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48 minutes ago, skeptic said:

How about we simply ask all members to vouch that they are not the center of the universe and that "something" greater and better than themselves may exist, whether they call it God, god, or something?

You want teenagers to declare that they are not the center of the Universe?  Good luck with that.  :D

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8 hours ago, qwazse said:

I'm sorry, Rick, but I know a lot of Jews, Muslims, and Christians who would not see themselves in that language. Not now. Not a century ago. The folks who left for Trail Life made that quite clear.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Which language are you referring too?

I know several scouters (some current, some past) that when looking at the DRP found themselves unable to support it because of their religious beliefs. One of which was a Protestant minister (it was the "grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings" part - and I still don't understand his objection even though he tried to explain it to me. I see nothing in the DRP that isn't compatible with Protestant theology. But I'm not a theologian. Anyone here have a clue?). Another was a Jainist that after reading the compete DRP, resigned as a den leader because the DRP was incompatible with his faith (I met him at a Scout-O-Rama several years ago. He was no longer a registered leader, but still volunteered with his pack as a parent.). I have met a few others that have said the DRP was a problem with their faith. I admit that I have a problem with the implication in the DRP that a non-believer can't really be a good citizen - my faith tells me otherwise.

So much for "absolutely nonsectarian".

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8 hours ago, CalicoPenn said:

Just as an aside - the DRP was created in the first decade of the BSA (which is why it's in the Bylaws and not the Charter) and it appears that James West was a primary reason for it - but not in the way that the above implies.  The DRP was created to assuage the Catholic Church which was worried that because the BSA was closely tied to the YMCA at the start that the BSA would become a Protestant organization under James West and not be open to Catholics, not because James West wanted it.

Another aside, since it was mentioned - the BSA stated back in 1920 that Buddhism was compatible with the BSA and the DRP so hopefully we can put that one to rest.

That would make sense. Learn something new every day!

As for Buddhist, you are correct that the BSA does say they are welcome, but that doesn't change the fact that I have met Buddhist that said that the DRP wasn't compatible with their faith (since Buddhists don't have a creator God, how can they recognize him as the leading power in the universe?). No matter what the BSA says, it's a problem for many.

Edited by Rick_in_CA
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The history on its creation is interesting.  Leads me to think it's no longer needed.  It could be replaced by a simpler statement that simply says we believe it is important to have a belief in a higher power.  While I now understand it's historical context - I don't see the value in continuing to include such descriptive language.

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I just want to say,   Amen! 

I think that it is important for young Scouts to realize there is more to the world than themselves and that there is a responsibility to a higher power and to the community.  I also find the practice of communal prayer and reflection important, especially in a society that says, no it's all about you all the time.

Edited by WisconsinMomma
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