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12 minutes ago, MattR said:

I tried the sad emoji but I don't want you to read it the wrong way. It's really sad that teachers are being assaulted.

Thanks. About 200,000 teachers are assaulted each year. About 9% of teachers report getting threats. 


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A patrol with two adults supervising it is no longer a patrol.  It's a den. 

Is it ok?  Depends.  My kids go over the next door neighbors house all the time.  We've been neighbors for years, had BBQs together, etc.   This is basic social communal structure.  If my neighbor was

Attention Richard B: I am one of those "old farts," first a district leader in 1962, red jacket and all.  Council leader in 1964.   You claim that, "The patrol method hasn't changed."  Appar



"How Big is the Problem?

According to the U.S. Department of Education, from 2011-12 (PDF, 4.14MB), approximately:

  • 9% reported being physically threatened ["Assault"]
  • 5% reported being physically attacked in schools.

From 1997-2001 (PDF, 800KB) 1.3 million nonfatal crimes (including 473,000 violent crimes) were committed against America’s teachers.

What Does It Cost? [assault and battery on k-12 public school teachers]

Victimization costs — both obvious and hidden — include:

  • Lost wages.
  • Lost days of work (927,000 days/per year).
  • Training and replacement of teachers leaving the school or profession prematurely.
  • Medical and psychological care.
  • Student disciplinary proceedings.
  • Increased workers’ compensation claims and premiums.
  • Incarceration of perpetrators"
  • SOURCE:  http://www.apa.org/education/k12/teacher-victimization.aspx

Thinking about this topic, I witnessed two incidents in my 13 years in public school ( eleven in Orange County, CA:)

 An 8th grade student put a tack on a teacher's chai ( He was surprised to find himself denounced and, when back from suspension, shunned.); and

An 8th grade student  a year older than the rest of us, decided to attack our Health and Science teacher who had told him to put out a cigarette he was openly smoking during the section on health risks of smoking.  To the delight and amusement of the rest of us, short, blocky, middle-aged Mr Thornton demonstrated why he was the California power lifting champion in his age group and held Bob the Bully against the blackboard (kicking, screaming, and cursing) (at least ten minutes) until a couple of us could, via the "office, " summon help in the form of two Garden Grove police officers. Bob's bully creds were ruined.  "MK T" was the school hero, but never should have needed to prove he had a big "S" on his undershirt.

Both occurrences in the same,  brand new, "lntermediate," school.


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Exchange with one bubble at National Council:

Q:  "4. There is a new rule in the Guide to Safe Scouting (effective10/01/18) stating that:  Two "registered adults"(necessarily 18 or older to be "adults") must be "at" all "Scout activities."

Even assuming you speak only of BSA scouting activities, what does this mean?  I can no longer meet with a merit badge candidate in his home with his parent(s) in the house but must gin up another BSA-registered Scouter?  

. . ."

A:  ". . .National legal counsel stated that 1 person must be registered (Merit Badge Counselor) and the 2nd ["registered"] adult does not have to be registered but must be over 21 – suggestion is a parent.. . .

Mandy Nora
Member Care Contact Center
Boy Scouts of America
972.580.2489 "


OK.  0___0 

I suppose that if we need to pretend that a parent is, ipso facto,  a "registered adult," to get some relief from a truly ridiculous rule that will greatly damage program, we do the "Wink; wink; nod; nod" bit.  

Still does not provide any way to conduct merit badge sessions at summer camp without two "registered adults" present (whatever "at" means), but as they have been, for many merit badges at many (most?) council summer camps, largely doing without any Merit Badge Counselors, or passing requirements,  those camps can and may probably ignore that rule too.  "Wink; wink; nod; nod."  Rules are obviously for LOL.


Timeless Values


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On 5/23/2018 at 7:06 AM, qwazse said:

So much for meeting with an MBC, even in a public library, even if one or both non-registered parent(s) stays with the scout.

The following, for what it's worth, from the National Council (I inquired after everyone I talked to at local council claimed to be unaware of the proposed new rules)::

"National legal counsel stated that 1 person must be registered (Merit Badge Counselor) and the 2nd adult does not have to be registered but must be over 21 – suggestion is a parent.."


This is not responsive.  The new rules does not call for "persons" or adults, but "registered adults."  The new rule needs to be withdrawn and reconsidered by competent adults aware that parents have legal custody and Scouters have, per se, no legal status vis-a-vis the children of others.  The claimed purposes of YPT do not required "registered" adults, when parents, law enforcement officers, librarians, or school teachers could insure a Scout's safety at least as well.


Here is the rest of the response from the central hive:

"1. Why is YPT training reached on web via "position-specific training" when it is not?  (This is a required training for all adult leaders.) [Ans] Every registered adult is required to complete the YPT.  Therefore, the link is provided. [Apparently doesn't understand what "position-specific" means.]

2. The rule prohibiting use of alcohol and drugs on Scout property was eliminated.  Now I find two rules barring drugs and alcohol "when prohibited by a BSA rule," but there is no such rule any longer.  An oversight, I trust.  [My local council "knew only that they could now rent property for events where liquor would be served and had no idea how that was accomplished.  My local council had not passed any policy to replace the revoked BS policy barring alcohol and controlled substances from its property.]

[Ans] Councils have the decision on this.  While most councils have a policy that talks about no alcohol while scouts are present -they have left it open if they want to be able to rent out the property for weddings and other events that have a controlled situation and may want to offer alcohol.  Again it is the council’s decision. [So a council rule is a BSA rule and the drug issue is ignored.  I conclude National wanted, for financial reasons, to free up Scouting property for booze.   Same logic as needing a "liquor license" for success in the restaurant world.  Then the time came to communicate. 😐  ]

3. Summer camps cannot be certified without registered Merit Badge Counselors for all Merit Badges that they offer per national camping standards.  Further, The Guide to Advancement requires that only registered Merit Badge Counselors pass candidates on MB requirements.  Yet many Council Camps allow minors - not registered MB Counselors by definition - to hand out Merit Badges, often with no  testing whatsoever on any requirement.  This is known to National Council.  What does National Council propose to do about it?  Another  Merit Badge Mill summer is upon us at Camp Frontier. 

[Ans]The council’s advancement committee is to approve the syllabus for the courses during camp and approve who can teach the courses [False if she implies minors or persons not registered as Merit Badge Counselors can be authorized by a local council to be Merit Badge Counselors.  In fact, expressly prohibited.  See Guide to Advancement.]  Most councils state that a 21 or older person must sign them. [Issue is who tests AND chronic failure to test. Yes, camps have an adult sign Blue Cards - in total ignorance  of what the candidates have done - or not done, constituting a fraud.]  National Camp Standard (NCAP) PD-106 requires that they be presented by qualified personnel . [ Anyone qualified can teach, although many who teach are highly unqualified, but Registered Merit Badge Counselors MUST be the gatekeepers who decide if the requirements are met.]  and are consistent with the BSA advancement policy..  As a result, were rules to matter when filling camp and mass "advancement" is at stake, some arrangement to have registered Merit Badge Counselors monitoring the MB program is required by National Camp Standard PD-106" for a camp to be "Approved."  


Name omitted to protect the authoress.  At least she responded, which is rare.  But how can the official information source be so clueless?









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Unless the patrol method is in
operation, you don’t really have a
Boy Scout troop.”
        B.S.A., Scouting.org (citing Baden-Powell) (September, 2015)
“[The patrol members] interact in a small group outside the larger troop context, working together as a team and sharing the responsibility of making their patrol a success.”
                      B.S.A., Scouting.org (2018)[emphasis added]
Edited by NJCubScouter
Fixed distracting typo (first letter of post was missing)
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@RichardB, tell the many boys in WPa, who meet regularly in the absence of adults to hike, camp, pick up litter, ... whatever good and noble thing ... that they need to join the BSA so that they can have the requisite adults in tow.

I'm living a paradox. As soon as boys are able and equipped, they're camping without me (or any other trained adult) to guide them. Sure, I'm no longer liable, but they also no longer have any sense of accountability to someone like me  for making a good plan and executing it well. They can skip shakedowns, leave naive parents vague hike plans, carry equipment that they haven't trained with, dispense with safe swim defense if they come upon a watering hole, and not train up to the challenges they face. 

I suspect my neck of the woods is not unusual. "Outside the larger troop context." Implies adults kept at a distance. Its very hard to reconcile that vision with the current G2SS.

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2 hours ago, desertrat77 said:

A patrol with two adults supervising it is no longer a patrol.  It's a den. 

It's a den as of 10/18 IF the Pack can find another adult - and one who will register.

Buzz, buzz.

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17 hours ago, RichardB said:

Attention @tahawk   The patrol method hasn't changed.   Supervision requirements by adults of that patrol activity has.   

You can find the latest here:  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/#a



this change fundamentally changes the patrol method, Having adults constantly monitoring patrols and youth leaders( the mere presence of adults will change the dynamics) undermines the goal of  creating independent  groups and leaders. I have talked to  our patrols about this change and they all have expressed that  they think that they are no longer to be trusted (by the BSA)to be independent. which in turn they question why are they in the scouts.

In the real world of local scouting, where are we going to get all these extra Registered leaders from? especially during working hours?  I have asked these questions  from round table all the way to National. to date i have not gotten an answer from anyone. No one. Except "we  do not know of any changes" or "thank you we will get back to you'.

In our troop the reality will be , most (80%) of the patrol activity's will be gone, due to this change. 

Truly a sad state of affairs


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Bad enough if they constanly "monitor."  Just that changes the chemistry and tends to defeat two official "Methods," including the most important - the Patrol Method.

The Safety bubble spokesman (above) says "supervision"    Supervisor.  The boss..

What will be left - if the rule is followed - is not worth supporting.



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@TAHAWK and @ Kryten:   So are you all saying the adults you currently have supervising units wouldn't know  / cannot figure out how to provide adult supervision of a patrol activity without interfering?   Help me understand.  How are they doing this now for your unit activities?     Are you saying that 80% of patrol activities now are conducted without adult supervision?   

@Kryten - what would lead the patrols to believe they couldn't be trusted?   How did that discussion go exactly?   

Edited by RichardB
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