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18 minutes ago, RichardB said:

@TAHAWK and @ Kryten:   So are you all saying the adults you currently have supervising units wouldn't know  / cannot figure out how to provide adult supervision of a patrol activity without interfering?   Help me understand.  How are they doing this now for your unit activities?     Are you saying that 80% of patrol activities now are conducted without adult supervision?   

@Kryten - what would lead the patrols to believe they couldn't be trusted?   How did that discussion go exactly?   

I'm sure you will get the answers to your question. But, you come off to most of us as having little understanding or experience with patrol method. How much do you have? Our discussion with your depends  on your knowledge and experience.

Barry

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7 minutes ago, RichardB said:

...   Help me understand.  How are they doing this now for your unit activities?     Are you saying that 80% of patrol activities now are conducted without adult supervision?   ....

I'm so glad you asked this, as it gives an opportunity for me to brag about our troop 3 years after its merger. We've moved back to our original CO which, be it ever so humble, allows the troop multiple rooms and the entire grounds without reservation (or, more importantly, the threat of charging us rent). Less than 20% of the meeting time is in the main room, with adults. Scouts may also excuse themselves from their patrol for a conference with an SM or a counselor, but generally they are meeting with their patrol or involved in a wide game or a service project with the SPL or QM. Adults are not in those rooms. Likewise, if they decide to meet  during the week at someone's house or a coffee shop, the parents or their barista may or may not be registered. We encourage this.

In the field, we're getting there. We try to encourage patrols to camp at some distance. When they want (or we want them) to take a hike, we ask them to bring us a plan and show they will be properly supplied. They go off on their own, and check in or meet us at appointed rendevous. It may consume 80% of their waking hours unsupervised by anyone except themselves. If I'm lucky, the SM and I will find the more masterful scouts at the last rendevous point with the fire to coals and supper on! At least, that's the objective.

Adults aren't welcome. When they are in the mix, I find that patrols don't check in or return dreadfully late. Adults often countermand a scout's good sense. It really takes a Herculean effort to train most adults to be passive observers. So, for safety's sake, we encourage scouts to plan for a pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with their mates. Then, we try to give them opportunities where that independence actually happens.

I want these guys to know that I'm there for them -- even when they later pile their friend's in a car and go hike in backcountry. Young adults who call me about this stuff to plan, and then stop by for after action review (possibly after Sunday dinner) is my paycheck.

But, for BSA to have a stake in this, it has to start with youth self-supervision at as many meetings and as many activities as the SM/Advisor deem possible with any particular patrol or any particular crew.

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Sigh!  OK.  You asked.

This should not need saying, especially to one assuming to speak for BSA Scouting.  We are NOT supposed to currently have adults supervising all Scouting activities.  Remember "EDGE." Ever  staffed EDGE, or even taken the training?  Adults, we have taught for years from the official syllabus, have the "E" goal -  to stand aside and let Scouts lead., coaching only when ASKED for advice.    Scouts are to be allowed success or failure - on their own.  

Moreover,  current BSA rules expressly authorize patrol meetings and front country hikes with zero adults present or "at" the said activities..  

The Scout is SAID by BSA  to belong to a patrol and experience Scouting in a patrol -- not a troop - context (See official BSA statements above.), a troop being a collection of patrols for the administrative convenience of the patrols.  The patrols are to be supervised by an elected Patrol Leader.

To the extent we have adults as supervisors, it is because the current employees of BSA and local councils do not understand and give only lip service to the Patrol Method, which IS  Boy Scouting.  .  They neither promote Boy Scouting, as BSA still defines it, nor discourage non-compliance with Boy Scouting. (Wouldn't want to offend overreaching adults when we are so desperately short of Scouters.)  BSA, officially, has given no coherent formal training in the Patrol Method in decades.  For fourteen years, the position-specific basic training syllabus section for SMs and SAs (Assistant Scoutmasters) on "The Patrol Method" did not contain a single sentence on the Patrol Method and used the word "patrol" only once (in another context).  As an understandable result, only a minority of Registered Scouts experience Boy Scouting.  

Safety is now telling one and all to have two registered adults as "supervision,"  I am saying that Safety, under some assumption of uber program authority, is daring to propose to drastically change Boy Scouting to an adult-led club for youth - i.e, non Boy Scouting.

Big change.  No one can defend this as merely "misplacing" Boy Scouting.

And you claim that no changes in the Patrol Method re being made.  

You want to "understand"?  Understanding comes from study, experience, and a decent respect for what you study.  That would be study, experience and respect, of and for Boy Scouting, not just "risk management."  You are proposing to kill Boy Scouting, as it was for over forty years and was supposed to be for over forty more, to reduce the risks of operating it.

I am told by our council's very effective fund-raising professional (and the word "professional" fits in her case) that a "strategic initiative" is to get a big chunk of the estates of Scouters from the "Golden Age" - you know; years  before you were born - as they die off.  To that end we are invited to one "Free" dinner presentation after another, much like the events run by folk flogging Florida real estate and annuities.   Dream on. We may have been born at night, but it was far from last night.  Fund raising is down 1/3 here, year-over- year.  More of that to come.

Buzz, buzz.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RichardB said:

@TAHAWK and @ Kryten:   So are you all saying the adults you currently have supervising units wouldn't know  / cannot figure out how to provide adult supervision of a patrol activity without interfering?   Help me understand.  How are they doing this now for your unit activities?     Are you saying that 80% of patrol activities now are conducted without adult supervision?   

@Kryten - what would lead the patrols to believe they couldn't be trusted?   How did that discussion go exactly?   

 Without getting into all the nuts and bolts of the patrol method. We as leaders are not there to supervise. Rather we are there for health and (true)safety reasons. the scouts run the show good or bad. only stepping in when absolutely necessary. and mentoring when needed.which is the hard part.

Yes. our patrols work 99,9% (or did) without adult leadership,outside of the troop meetings. It is(or was) encouraged.  Troop activity's always have adult leadership present.(drinking coffee far away from the scouts).

Up until the last change to the G2SS. Patrol activity's to include day hikes and overnight(one night)camping trips were allowed with no adult leaders.

The conversation started when I had to inform the patrols that they no longer could conduct any patrol activity.(meetings,hiking projects,camping, Popcorn selling) unless 2  21+ registered leaders were present. These are things they did for years without  adults. I can not give them an answer( they just don't buy  into the "were here to make you safe") because I can not get one from BSA. what would you think if it were you?

As our troop can  not provide all the adult leadership this rule change will require. About 80% of the patrol activity's will have to end. Not because we do not know how to provide it, but we can't provide it.

I ask this

This system has worked  and been in place for over 100 years. What looming safety issue has arisen in the last year to require yet more adult(21 +)  leaders we do not have?

 

 

 

 

 

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Been reading this thread for awhile, will pipe up now...

I work for a railroad, and we have rules upon rules, they contradict each other, make it impossible to do your job. Make you angry even.

In the end, we end up breaking some of them anyways just to get stuff accomplished.  This seems like a similar situation.....

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And I din't say "supervision" was their role.  You did: "The patrol method hasn't changed.   Supervision requirements by adults of that patrol activity has."

Note: There is, currently, no requirement of adult supervision at patrol meetings and front country hikes.  That is an essential part of the Patrol Method and Leadership Development.

 

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Thankfully patrols still have time to do patrol activities without adults. Per the ONLINE G2SS, which according to the print copy IS the most current version, Has this to say:

Adult Supervision

(Effective October 1, 2018) Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age ....

So the new DEN METHOD for SCOUTS is not in effect yet.

 

And for those freaking out about patrols doing their own stuff without adults, a reminder of the Current policy. I found the 2015 G2SS and this is what is says:

• Patrol Activities There are instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to patrol leadership training and guidance. With proper training, guidance, and approval by troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects.

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Changes are mandatory, thanks for sharing this. Yesterday, I read a news that " 16 year old child died while climbing during scout training". This incident was very unfortunate. I hope strict safety measures would must be added soon.

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4 hours ago, danielhenry12 said:

Changes are mandatory, thanks for sharing this. Yesterday, I read a news that " 16 year old child died while climbing during scout training". This incident was very unfortunate. I hope strict safety measures would must be added soon.

So long Patrol Method.  So long Boy Scouting. 

We tried top-down dictatorship before and have never recovered.  Participation is voluntary.  So long.

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I've been reading about the "Patrol Method" here.  I always thought that we did the "Patrol Method" back when I was in Scouts, as we had patrols.  But, there were always adults around, too.  It seems the actual "Patrol Method" is extremely hands off.  I'm not sure I completely agree with that.  For example, a few weekends ago I went on a Weblos invite Boy Scout campout with my son.  They were attempting to teach the Weblos how to start a fire, and failing miserably.  Mindful of the "Scout Lead" philosophy, I bit my tongue for as long as I could, but finally went and brought them some tissue paper and said, if you would like some advice, I'd recommend a big wad of tinder and a lot more kindling then you currently have.  Soon a fire was going.

I get the "hands off", self-sufficient mindset, but I also think that the Guidance part of Edge is useful.  I understand the idea of letting kids fail, but I also think that after you watch floundering for a while stepping in with guidance is a good thing, too.  I think, perhaps, ideally the guidance should happen before the need arises to put skills into practice, but guidance should be available at any time. 

So I don't see it as the end of the world or the end of the Patrol Method to have 2 trained adults at Scouting functions.  Having 2 trained adults "supervising" doesn't have to mean micromanaging.  It should just mean observing and keeping things safe.  The biggest problem to me is simply getting more YPT trained adults. 

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46 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

 

So I don't see it as the end of the world or the end of the Patrol Method to have 2 trained adults at Scouting functions.  Having 2 trained adults "supervising" doesn't have to mean micromanaging.  It should just mean observing and keeping things safe.  The biggest problem to me is simply getting more YPT trained adults. 

Sometimes in patrol method camping we forget that we have older boys that do know how to do things. If a patrol does not know how to do something they ask the SPL, the SPL solves the problem by finding a good instructor. If the SPL does not know how or how to solve it then he asks the SM for advice. Failing, asking for help, and solving issues without the help of the sdults if the goal, not building fires or having outdoor skills.

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46 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

... I always thought that we did the "Patrol Method" back when I was in Scouts, as we had patrols.  But, there were always adults around, too.  It seems the actual "Patrol Method" is extremely hands off.  ..

There is a bit of "eye of the beholder" going on. For example, having a couple of scouters 100 yards away in an open meadow -- while the SPL/ASPL may shuttle between scouts and adults as needed -- is what I call "reasonably engaged."  But, last week we backpacked mostly first-years over moderate terrain to an idyllic, but narrow site between thickets and a stream. My dog was the only seasoned backpacker under the age of 13! So, yes, the adults were within eyesight and earshot.

On the other hand, if this group keeps itself together, in 3 years, we'll be on the opposite side of the valley from them. They may even show up with a hike plan, and if I'm convinced of their training, I'll let them work it and rendezvous with them at the end of the trail.

So, we bend the PM to fit the terrain.

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55 minutes ago, Tired_Eagle_Feathers said:

So I don't see it as the end of the world or the end of the Patrol Method to have 2 trained adults at Scouting functions.  Having 2 trained adults "supervising" doesn't have to mean micromanaging.  It should just mean observing and keeping things safe.  The biggest problem to me is simply getting more YPT trained adults. 

Probably not, but it depends on the adults. I remember my Webelos watching the scouts during a troop visit lash a flag pole together. It became pretty obvious the scouts didn't know their lashings. They struggled for about 15 minutes before the ASM jumped in and cussed them out, using some pretty rough language. The troop was taken off our top two list.  

The discussions can become pretty extreme on this forum and I can see the difficulty of new leader molding their reality into the idealistic world being described on the forum. No adults doesn't necessarily mean NO adults. But, putting scouts in an environment where they feel free to express themselves (and fail) without adult intervention is challenging. We call that a safe place.

This forum likes to use  the 100 yard separation rule between patrols and adults, to describe  the idealistic  independence intended for patrols. But it's not really so much about about the physical separation that is important as  it is providing the atmosphere of independence for scouts to feel a sense of free thought. In truth, Patrol method is messy even in the best boy run programs and the chaos challenges the adults' patience. Patrol Method is more about adult reactions to scouts' decisions than the actual scouts' decisions.

End of the world, no of course not. But two adults standing nearby stomping their feet to stay warm can be a lot more challenging. 

A Little side story on our Safe Place philosophy;  because of low impact rules, camp sites for high adventure patrols are sometimes so small that tents are set up next to each other.  As a result, we made a rule that what is said in the tent stays in the tent. However, after a few nights of young male adults telling stories with a language that would make a sailor blush (not the Marines of course),  I once mentioned during breakfast that while we have the rule of what is said in a tent stays in a tent, parents (I used parents for more impact) are literally just on the other side of the wall of their tent. That helped a little, but not as much as you would think.:blink:

Barry

 

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