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Hawkwin

National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

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6 minutes ago, gblotter said:

@LegacyLost  I understand the bitter tone you express, and I'm sorry for it. There are many of us in the same boat who feel disillusioned by these recent changes.

My plans for an earlier departure have changed. I have been asked to remain as Scoutmaster until the LDS exit on 12/31/19. There is much to be done over the next 18 months, with up to 10 of our boys targeting Eagle before the deadline. By hanging on, I will disappoint @RememberSchiff who has declared me unworthy to wear the purple crest because I desire a traditional boy-only summer camp experience for our troop. Or @CalicoPenn who has urged me to quit now because my affinity for traditional Scouting is a poison to the program. Anyone who doesn't embrace these changes is shamed as "unScout-like" or "conditional Scouter". So be it. Ironically, this new "inclusive" Scouting is not inclusive enough for the likes of me.

In your own words on 3/9/2018 in topic Family Scouting Update

"I wouldn't want our boys sharing merit badge classes, evening campfires, flag ceremonies, or dining hall times with girl troops. I seek to continue the same summer camp experience our boys have enjoyed before these announcements. "

As I was taught and teach, A SCOUT IS A FRIEND TO ALL, AND A BROTHER TO EVERY OTHER SCOUT, NO MATTER TO WHAT SOCIAL CLASS THE OTHER BELONGS - Baden Powell.

RS

 

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1 minute ago, RememberSchiff said:

In your own words on 3/9/2018 in topic Family Scouting Update

"I wouldn't want our boys sharing merit badge classes, evening campfires, flag ceremonies, or dining hall times with girl troops. I seek to continue the same summer camp experience our boys have enjoyed before these announcements. "

What I describe is the same boy-only summer camp experience that every BSA troop will have this summer. How heretical is that? In theory, BSA still recognizes the value of single-gender Scouting - thus boy-only troops and girl-only troops. But such value does not extend to summer camps?

It is your smear that says I am not "a friend to all" simply because I disagree with a co-ed vision of summer camp.

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35 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Does seem like the UK program is a very good one to look to for guidance on moving forward.
 

Meh, you say that, but I remember when we went co-ed, proper co-ed, and while it wasn't quite "blood on the streets", it wasn't especially pretty. We lost some fine leaders who just weren't prepared to work with girls, and didn't believe it was the right thing to do. Yes, we're growing, a bit, and have been for a while, but we've changed the programme, we've gone co-ed, we changed the uniform, changed the age ranges/sections, we've created alternative promises for the godless, we've recruited a world famous TV presenter as chief scout. We're in the process, it's always in progress, of changing a perception of scouts from back in the 80s as nerdy and wet, back to being something that kids do, kids want to do, they are proud of it, and parents are glad they do it. But still, we're only <1% of the population. It's a slow boat to turn. 

All that said, if we can help, I'd like to think we would, we're scouts after all.

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48 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

In your own words on 3/9/2018 in topic Family Scouting Update

"I wouldn't want our boys sharing merit badge classes, evening campfires, flag ceremonies, or dining hall times with girl troops. I seek to continue the same summer camp experience our boys have enjoyed before these announcements. "

As I was taught and teach, A SCOUT IS A FRIEND TO ALL, AND A BROTHER TO EVERY OTHER SCOUT, NO MATTER TO WHAT SOCIAL CLASS THE OTHER BELONGS - Baden Powell.

RS

 

It is not about social class. It's about the eternal law of God. A true friend must part ways with another if they insist of taking one into evil. It cannot be any other way. 

A true friend will tell you what you don't want to hear and warn you rather than be a yes man unto your destruction.

Finally, by violating the oath to honor God and be morally straight the BSA are no longer scouts anymore anyway and thus the principle is not violated by LDS nor Trail Life.

They wear the skin of the scouts but they are no longer scouts.

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45 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

In your own words on 3/9/2018 in topic Family Scouting Update

"I wouldn't want our boys sharing merit badge classes, evening campfires, flag ceremonies, or dining hall times with girl troops. I seek to continue the same summer camp experience our boys have enjoyed before these announcements. "

As I was taught and teach, A SCOUT IS A FRIEND TO ALL, AND A BROTHER TO EVERY OTHER SCOUT, NO MATTER TO WHAT SOCIAL CLASS THE OTHER BELONGS - Baden Powell.

RS

 

If memory serves,  when BP found out that girls wanted to do scouting, he set up a separate organization, the Girl Guides, and had his wife run it separately from the Boy Scouts.  This all girls organization is still in business, and by some accounts, is prospering more than the current Scout Association in Britain.  How could BP to be so unfriendly, to forsake being a brother to every other scout.  He must have been a heartless, bigoted individual who hated females and treated them like crap.

I wonder what would happen if the BSA followed BP's example, and set up something like the Girl Guides in an organizational division separate from the boys organization.  Both would be scouts, but they could have kept the male and female distinctions, and distinctiveness, intact.  

 

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The only reason there was a separate group was because the world was much more segregated then.  Economics, class, gender, race.  It's just the world at the time.

25 years from now, kids will look back and be surprised that there was ever a time where Scouting was not co-ed.

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7 minutes ago, allangr1024 said:

If memory serves,  when BP found out that girls wanted to do scouting, he set up a separate organization, the Girl Guides, and had his wife run it separately from the Boy Scouts.

Actually, it was his sister, Agnes, that he recruited.  He didn't marry until later, and his wife Olave did eventually become World Chief Guide.

Edited by Treflienne
typo

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2 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The only reason there was a separate group was because the world was much more segregated then.

The only reason - really? Who are you to state the motivations of Baden-Powell so definitively?

Could it possibly be that Baden-Powell recognized the value of single-gender Scouting and appreciated how boys and girls learn differently? Nah.

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2 minutes ago, LegacyLost said:

It is not about social class. It's about the eternal law of God. A true friend must part ways with another if they insist of taking one into evil. It cannot be any other way. 

A true friend will tell you what you don't want to hear and warn you rather than be a yes man unto your destruction.

Finally, by violating the oath to honor God and be morally straight the BSA are no longer scouts anymore anyway and thus the principle is not violated by LDS nor Trail Life.

They wear the skin of the scouts but they are no longer scouts.

LegacyLost,  I am a Christian believer, but I am not prepared to say that the BSA going coed is akin to violating the law of God.  Scouting has always been a tool to help boys grow into men.  As such, its purpose is noble and good, and I can use it to help my sons grow into men as well.  But the allowing of girls into the BSA does not concern me because it violates scripture.  Rather it is unwise, as it brings both girls and boys together at a time when their sense of their distinctiveness is being learned by both sides.  Boys need to be around men to learn how to be a man.  And I assume that girls need to be around mature women for the same reason.  Hormones being what they are, it seems to me that giving boys an environment to be boys is a wise thing, and the same with girls.  

I fear that as the 12 year old  girls in a coed setting mature a bit faster than the boys, the girls will be preferred, and will be set up as an informal standard in behavior and manners.  The boys then are told to act like the girls, and then we have what we have in schools.  The masculine traits will be considered "Toxic Masculinity" and boys will be treated as second rate.   That will be too bad.

 

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5 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

25 years from now, kids will look back and be surprised that there was ever a time where Scouting was not co-ed.

25 years from now, kids will not even recognize the remnants of BSA from what we have known in the past. The real surprise will come in wondering why BSA chose to self-destruct by departing from its core mission and values that helped develop boys into men for more than a century.

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3 minutes ago, allangr1024 said:

I am a Christian believer, but I am not prepared to say that the BSA going coed is akin to violating the law of God.

I do not mean to speak for @LegacyLost but perhaps he was referring to BSA's earlier embrace of homosexuality and transgenderism in his comments about violating the laws of God.

@allangr1024  I do agree with your appraisal of the folly of BSA going co-ed. Mature, well-behaved girls will always be preferred over squirrely, rowdy boys of the same age. My son suffers the consequences of this on a daily basis in his school classes. That is only one reason why I oppose the idea of co-ed summer camps.

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18 minutes ago, gblotter said:

The only reason - really? Who are you to state the motivations of Baden-Powell so definitively?

Could it possibly be that Baden-Powell recognized the value of single-gender Scouting and appreciated how boys and girls learn differently? Nah.

I'm someone sticking up for BP.  Looking at what he created and the core principles principles contained in the oath & law, it's a small step to ascribe the single gender nature of the program as a byproduct of the times.  I find it very difficult to believe that BP living in a world that is moving in the direction of treating boys & girls equally would create a program and specifically excluded them.   It's unfair to BP to try to lump him in with the "girls will ruin scouting" argument.

 

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24 minutes ago, gblotter said:

25 years from now, kids will not even recognize the remnants of BSA from what we have known in the past. The real surprise will come in wondering why BSA chose to self-destruct by departing from its core mission and values that helped develop boys into men for more than a century.

25 years from now, kids may be surprised that children were allowed to venture out into the woods. 

 

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3 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

I'm someone sticking up for BP.  Looking at what he created and the core principles principles contained in the oath & law, it's a small step to ascribe the single gender nature of the program as a byproduct of the times.  I find it very difficult to believe that BP living in a world that is moving in the direction of treating boys & girls equally would create a program and specifically excluded them.   It's unfair to BP to try to lump him in with the "girls will ruin scouting" argument.   

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It is pure speculation to assert what BP would do in current times. However, we definitely can say what he DID do in his day ... that was to create parallel programs - not mix boys and girls together. It is obvious that BP did not believe girls would ruin Scouting, but he also did not believe that a single program for both boys and girls was the right way to meet their needs. That much is clear.

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