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Hawkwin

National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

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23 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

Agreed. I NEVER assumed that any of his posts were directed at any specific person. Despite that, he was basically tarred and feathered for having an opinion. And the response he received here is likely the reason others that may feel similarly don't say anything. And then silence is equated with acceptance. And so the false assumption that there is a majority or  consensus is then entered as fact. 

There's definitely a danger to the "shout your opponent down" tactic. You get surprises like the Nov 2016 election. Instead of honest discourse, you create your own ambush.

It's not just that he insulted forum members - it's the blatant attacks on the BSA, it's leadership, and by inference those that support it.  Calling the BSA and its leaders immoral and wishing it's demise is a problem.

There are many more ways to make your point without having to revert to that.

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2 minutes ago, David CO said:

No, it isn't. BSA is requiring that units accept gay youth. That is no latitude at all.

 

How does a unit accepting gay youth cause any scout to violate the Scout law or oath?

 

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4 minutes ago, David CO said:

No, it isn't. BSA is requiring that units accept gay youth. That is no latitude at all.

 

Yes, because to do otherwise is to allow YOU to impose your morality on scouts.

We should no more allow that behavior than to allow another troop to tell their applicants that they MUST pray five times a day while facing Mecca or otherwise be deemed immoral and excluded from membership.

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1 minute ago, ParkMan said:

It's not just that he insulted forum members - it's the blatant attacks on the BSA, it's leadership, and by inference those that support it.  Calling the BSA and its leaders immoral and wishing it's demise is a problem.

There are many more ways to make your point without having to revert to that.

I'm quite sure sure you would stand up the same way of a program that you truly felt was dangerous to kids. You might have already said something similar about a political party or party policy. Inspired by his passion, he is trying to prevent kids from getting hurt. 

Barry 

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24 minutes ago, carebear3895 said:

Or maybe we could remember the Scout Oath and Law when commenting on a Scout Forum

So much for having "wide latitude" in interpreting the scout oath and law. It seems that "wide latitude" only applies to those who express liberal views.

 

Edited by David CO
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3 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Yes, because to do otherwise is to allow YOU to impose your morality on scouts.

Which brings us back to my previous statement. You can't have a moral code in a totally inclusive group. It's just not possible.

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Boy, am I coming into this late.  21 pages?    Discussion (?) of reasons why LDS is developing it's own youth program rather than adapting the BSA to it's purpose?  Do I have those things right?  Morality and sin and God's approval or not discerned?   Wow.

Our Jewish and  Muslim and  Hindu and Taoist brothers and sisters must be enjoying this.   Anybody want a BLT for lunch?  Left hand Scout Handshake?  Working on your Karma account?  

Does the CO still define it's membership?  Leadership?   Is that still in the Charter Agreement?   

"Enquiring minds (if we still have any) want to know".   

 

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1 minute ago, Hawkwin said:

Yes, because to do otherwise is to allow YOU to impose your morality on scouts.

We should no more allow that behavior than to allow another troop to tell their applicants that they MUST pray five times a day while facing Mecca or otherwise be deemed immoral and excluded from membership.

We (YOU, ME and all ADULT LEADERS) all impose our personal morality on the scouts because we are their judge of right and wrong. We just don't call it morality, we call it the Oath and Law. But it is morality. And if you don't think that is intended, I suggest you read the BSA Mission Statement. 

Also, sponsors have the freedom to expect certain behaviors to be enforced on their scouts. Families are given the freedom to choose any unit they want. 

Barry

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30 minutes ago, numbersnerd said:

My suggestion would be to grow a thicker skin if you're going to converse on the interwebs.

Thick skin had nothing to do with it. You said this person didn't direct their comments at anyone in particular, I pointed out that was false. I wasn't "whining" about anything. Just stating facts. 

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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 12:53 PM, Oldscout448 said:

Perhaps we could get the moderators to open a religious argument only section of this forum.

....   Oh wait,  the Chaplain and Faith Forum was created  how many years ago because of the multitude of discussions of faith and religion and ....

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9 minutes ago, David CO said:

So much for having "wide latitude" in interpreting the scout oath and law. It seems that "wide latitude" only applies to those who express liberal views.

 

Hardly.

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1 minute ago, David CO said:

Which brings us back to my previous statement. You can't have a moral code in a totally inclusive group. It's just not possible.

The moral code is for the scout, not for the scouter to impose on the scout. This is where there is no religion test when it comes to Duty to God. The scout is asked if they did it, not if it meets the specific requirements that the scouter would like to impose on the scout.

Additionally, we have a very strong moral code. The Oath and the Law well define our code. It simply doesn't demand a specific behavior regarding sex. We can certainly have a strong moral code even when it doesn't cover ever single thing a scout might encounter.

Again, we don't have a moral code as it pertains to premarital sex. That doesn't mean that the individual scout is absent their own code (based on their faith) regarding such. Just means you don't get to exclude them from membership based on it.

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3 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Boy, am I coming into this late.  21 pages?    ...

Threads like this always crash to the lowest base intellectual level after about two or three pages.  

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57 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

The BSA doesn't have a rigidly defined moral code. 

Taurus Excretus.  BSA had a moral code to be envied; until '"acting like a Boy Scout" became a pejorative. 

1 hour ago, ParkMan said:

The BSA gives scouts and families wide latitude in how to interpret this. 

All the BSA changed was who can try to apply these.  They in no way changed the fundamentals behind it.

And some used that latitude to the extreme.  "My moral code is to have no morals, but since that's my moral code; I can be an Eagle scout!"  And BSA allowed it.

The basic strength of a good morale code is that it doesn't change.  Through good times and bad, whether popular or unpopular, these are my morals.  Some things I will always do.  Some things I will never do.  You get strength and affirmation from others who have the same code that you do.   BSA hasn't changed their fundamentals?  You're right; BSA completely abandoned their fundamentals.  

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4 minutes ago, Hawkwin said:

Additionally, we have a very strong moral code. The Oath and the Law well define our code. It simply doesn't demand a specific behavior regarding sex.

Yes. We have a strong moral code. It just doesn't demand morality. What gibberish.

 

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