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Hawkwin

National, Religion, Membership, Oath and Law

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49 minutes ago, FireStone said:

You're the 2nd person this week to tell me that I hate something that I love. First I was told I hate the BSA. Now I'm told that I hate God. It's interesting that people on an Internet forum who know so little about me seem to think they know me so well. 

Last night I was working with my Scouts on a service project at a local park, I guess hating the BSA the whole time. Friday night I'll be at our Pack meeting, apparently hating the BSA then, too. Sunday morning I'll be at church, I suppose hating God and my faith. Geez, I sure do a lot of hating. 😄

So then should I say that I'm at work right now, "loving" my job? 😉

I know the feeling, someone labeled me a "Progressive". Mrs. Schiff thought that was hysterical.  :D

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2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

But that is only your belief based on your interpretation of your religious text for your god. Many many others have different religious beliefs based on their own. You believe you are right, else you would believe differently; but it is still a belief as is mine which differs greatly from yours. The BSA and the USA allow us both to keep our own beliefs. 

I have a hard time giving much weight to folks who are not recent or existing members. There are always someone...from either sides of these debates...who will find enough to be offended by to not join. 

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22 minutes ago, Saltface said:

He's being a little bit disingenuous when he says withholding FOS donations doesn't send a message to National Council. According to his own numbers, Grand Teton Council has up to seven seats at National.

Something seems shady with that council. To me if seems like they focused almost all their resources on fundraising, not membership because they knew they could rely on the LDS to automatically meet their numbers. That would makes sense for the United Way severing ties (which you never see unless that council has a large fund surplus). But it looks like that decision to not recruit non-LDS scouts is about to blow up in their faces. 

 

Also, very weird to see a scout executive not wearing silver loops or a SE patch. 

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27 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

How can one say " I love God but I refuse to do what He says" ?     

I was raised Southern Baptist in the deep South where I was still paddled in school and wearing shorts was not permitted in school (showed too much skin). I remember being told to break my rock and roll records because when they were played backwards, they told us to do sinful things.

Hating the sinner was a big deal with my church and religion. It wasn't until much later in life that I learned that we should have hated the sin and not the sinner. Even if you believe being gay is a sin, it is no worse a sin than any others - and yet we are still told to love the sinner.

If you are a follower of Jesus, then you should know that Jesus spent his time with sinners. Church was created for the sinners. If you believe in all of that, then BSA is a great place for our fellow sinners regardless of sexual orientation - we are all sinners, right? How many scouts (and scouters) have you kicked out for premarital activities?

We ALL refuse to do what he says. That is the very nature of sin. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Who wants to step forward and be the first to judge? Not I.

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1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

The hopeful was that he thought that long time scouters who were also members of the LDS would remain members and supporters of scouting, hopeful because he believed many LDS families would continue to have their sons (and daughters) in scouting because they loved and believed in scouting not just because it was mandated by their church, and also hopeful in that he believed that the council was positioned to survive financially because of some sound investment strategies they had made.

2

Being hopeful is a wonderful quality to carry us through life.

In my LDS troop, I know of only one Scouting family that is likely to continue with a non-LDS troop in 2020. This particular family has already participated in a non-LDS Cub Scout pack. Everyone else intends to sprint toward Eagle before the exit deadline. Your mileage may vary.

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58 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

...How can one say " I love God but I refuse to do what He says" ?     I can only assume that Firestone believes that  Paul of Tarsus, who penned half of the new testament, is  not to be taken seriously here and has somehow come to terms with that...

 

I've stated my beliefs as they relate to the discussion at hand. I don't feel the need to explain them any further. 

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50 minutes ago, Saltface said:

He's being a little bit disingenuous when he says withholding FOS donations doesn't send a message to National Council. According to his own numbers, Grand Teton Council has up to seven seats at National.

True. If their council voted for the recent changes in BSA policy, then they deserve to face the consequences. 

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Hawkwin,  I too have attended many a southern baptist meeting. As well as Methodist Catholic Episcopalian and a Pentecostal or two. Allow me to make a distinction here. I think there is a difference between failing to live up to biblical standards and the outright rejection of biblical standards. Yes we all fail none of us are perfect yet we are called to keep trying. To keep getting back up after falling. I think the difficulty lies and where some of us would say this is clearly a sin biblically speaking. But others say no it's not it's fine in fact it should be celebrated we don't care what that old book says.

Again I am not the keeper of anyone's conscience I am merely trying to point out that it is disingenuous for someone to say I believe in the Bible when they obviously in fact do not

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1 minute ago, Oldscout448 said:

I think there is a difference between failing to live up to biblical standards and the outright rejection of biblical standards.

Well said!

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3 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I've stated my beliefs as they relate to the discussion at hand. I don't feel the need to explain them any further. 

if you feel no need then there is no need.

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21 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Perhaps we could get the moderators to open a religious argument only section of this forum.

Okay, I will look into the possibility but only admins can create forums/sub-forums.

@NJCubScouter  , @Sentinel947

Edited by RememberSchiff
clarify who can create forums, sub-forums

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3 minutes ago, David CO said:

True. If their council voted for the recent changes in BSA policy, then they deserve to face the consequences. 

I'd be happy if someone here can educate me about who the voting members are at BSA National. Aside from the "Key 3", who are we talking about? If each council has voting representatives and the voting was unanimous - then, yes each council absolutely deserves to face the consequences of unpopular decisions.

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21 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Again I am not the keeper of anyone's conscience I am merely trying to point out that it is disingenuous for someone to say I believe in the Bible when they obviously in fact do not

It's often not even as straight forward as believing or not believing. Often it's a case of looking at it differently. One of the best sermons I ever heard was a priest who said that if anyone stands in front of you and claims to understand every word of the bible and have all the answers they are lying either to themselves or to you.

I am a Christian. I do though understand that the bible as we know it today is a collection of 68 texts, written by many different people, some where the author is unknown or unclear. They were created over thousands of years in multiple languages that were in turn translated into Latin then into Medieval English and finally modern English.  They were written for different purposes and for different audiences. There are books of history, poetry, law and prophecy. There are letters to individuals and letters to populations. With some exceptions, such as the gospels and the first 5 books of the Old Testament, very few were intended as holy texts.

whats more different churches recognise different texts as belonging to the bible. A Catholic bible has quite a few differences to a Protestant one. An orthodox bible looks different again and so it goes.

With all that in mind I don't think an individual who accepts the basics of Christianity, of God coming to earth in human form, living a blameless life, dying and rising again, but on the other hands asks questions of or even disagrees with how elements of the bible are applied to modern life is being disingenuous. They are simply applying their intellect to an incredibly complex text and coming up with a different answer.

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46 minutes ago, gblotter said:

Being hopeful is a wonderful quality to carry us through life.

In my LDS troop, I know of only one Scouting family that is likely to continue with a non-LDS troop in 2020. This particular family has already participated in a non-LDS Cub Scout pack. Everyone else intends to sprint toward Eagle before the exit deadline. Your mileage may vary.

That is interesting.  I am Catholic, my current troop is sponsored by my parish, but neither my Pack nor troop growing up was sponsored by my then parish, and a troop I was involved with for my nephew while he was a scout was also not a Catholic parish.  The COs were respectively a Knights of Columbus, a Presbyterian Church, and a volunteer fire company.  So my scouting and my Catholicism have never been as intertwined as they clearly have been for a member of the LDS.  It is worth remembering that the same is true for more than 80% of all scouts here in the US.

I find it interesting that, as far as I can tell from the Church's statements, they are neither attributing their decision to recent BSA decisions, nor are they giving any instruction that LDS youth not participate in scouting.  I wonder at the number of people who claim that they loved scouting but are leaving now that it is not a mandated part of their worship.

I long wondered whether the relationship between the LDS Church and BSA was both a strength and at the same time an Achille's heel for the BSA.

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